From dekudekuplex at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 07:37:00 2008 From: dekudekuplex at yahoo.com (Benjamin L. Russell) Date: Tue Jul 1 07:28:13 2008 Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list Message-ID: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and elementary-level learners of Haskell, called "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing List." This new mailing list would be guided by the principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts education, on a par with Scheme. When I suggested the idea of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here to ask for feedback. The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would be as follows: 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to in research. 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal arts education, as opposed to an engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists: a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for announcements and for non-beginner discussions b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of the language Haskell. Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have witnessed several instances in which new users who were not familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not assume enough mathematical background, or for posting messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the mailing list. (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a private e-mail message from another poster asking the former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points randomly from a square in approximating pi. Avoiding this question required the knowledge that screen resolution could be considered independently from the precision of the algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and received the above-mentioned response.) This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum, and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics background. The primary audience of this new mailing list would be educators and students in a liberal arts curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for studying functional programming. Currently, the language Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell may either not have a computer science background, or may not have a sophisticated mathematical background. Posts from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers, who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find valuable information to aid their research, but may be welcome in a more education-focused context. It would seem that creating a new mailing list, Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding questions from students in that context, would help increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in industry. Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background would be able to ask elementary questions to educators willing to discuss such questions, without being expected to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science background. -- Benjamin L. Russell --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow wrote: > From: Simon Marlow > Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing list > To: "Benjamin L. Russell" > Cc: "John Peterson" > Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM > Hi Benjamin, > > Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list has > a narrow > focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche. In this case > you're > proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it > needs discussion > amongst the community before we create the list, so that we > can keep a > consistent strategy. > > That's not to say that I disagree with your proposal. > But it doesn't > seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and why > haskell-cafe > shouldn't serve the purpose. One thing that isn't > clear is whether the > list you're proposing is for people interested in > *teaching* Haskell (in > which case I'd say it's a great idea), or people > *learning* Haskell (in > which case I'd consider carefully whether haskell-cafe > shoudn't be > serving that need). That's something you need to > clarify when proposing > this list to the community. > > So I suggest you send this proposal out to > haskell@haskell.org in the > first instance, and see what response you get. Discussion > should move > to haskell-cafe quickly. > > Cheers, > Simon > > Benjamin L. Russell wrote: > > Greetings, > > > > John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail > message requesting you to perform set-up of a new > Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to > moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the > administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org. > > > > My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am interested in > starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan to call > Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research > beginner-level educational matters, guided by the > philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to > non-computer science major students. > > > > This topic is not covered by any of the other mailing > lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and Haskell-Cafe > for the past six months or so, but the former is devoted to > announcements, and the latter de facto to research matters. > Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly academic > and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an > unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science majors > interested in learning Haskell. > > > > Since John Peterson recommended that I request you to > set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you please > set it whenever you have free time, as follows: > > > > Name of Mailing List: Haskell-Edu > > E-mail Address: haskell-edu@haskell.org > > Description: The Haskell-Edu Mailing List: > Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in > Education > > > > Could you please advise me on what I need to do to > start this mailing list? Should I host it on haskell.org, > or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org mailing > list service? Also, how should I have it listed in the > "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" > (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the > benefit of other members of the Haskell community? > > > > Thank you very much for your time and cooperation. > > > > Sincerely yours, > > > > Benjamin L. Russell > > > > --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson > wrote: > > > >> From: John Peterson > >> Subject: RE: on starting a new Haskell-related > mailing list > >> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" > > >> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM > >> Hi Benjamin, > >> > >> There's no problem starting a new mailing > list. Simon > >> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if you > drop him > >> and email he'll do the setup for Haskell.org. > Once the > >> list is going, you can go into the wiki and add it > to the > >> appropriate pages. > >> > >> We've had a bunch of these special interest > lists and > >> most of them go dead after a few months but you > never know > >> ... > >> > >> > >> John > > > > --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell > wrote: > > > >> From: Benjamin L. Russell > > >> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing > list > >> To: "John Peterson" > > >> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM > >> Greetings, > >> > >> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am > interested in > >> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I > plan to > >> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to > non-research > >> beginner-level educational matters, guided by the > >> philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible > to > >> non-computer science major students. (This > message is > >> being addressed to you because I had already sent > the > >> portion below twice to other administrators at > Haskell.org, > >> first to mailman-owner@haskell.org, and then to > >> simonmarhaskell@gmail.com, but had not received a > response > >> on either occasion.) > >> > >> This topic is not covered by any of the other > mailing > >> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and > Haskell-Cafe > >> for the past six months or so, but the former is > devoted to > >> announcements, and the latter de facto to research > matters. > >> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly > academic > >> and research-oriented, and I feel that this > creates an > >> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer > science majors > >> interested in learning Haskell. > >> > >> Could you please advise me on what I need to do to > start > >> this mailing list? Should I host it on > haskell.org, or > >> just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org > mailing > >> list service? Also, how should I have it listed > in the > >> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" > >> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for > the > >> benefit of other members of the Haskell community? > >> > >> Thank you very much for your time and cooperation. > >> > >> Sincerely yours, > >> > >> Benjamin L. Russell From matthew at wellquite.org Tue Jul 1 08:15:32 2008 From: matthew at wellquite.org (Matthew Sackman) Date: Tue Jul 1 08:06:51 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Anglo Haskell 2008 Message-ID: <20080701121531.GB1808@arkansas.doc.ic.ac.uk> Anglo Haskell is a gathering of all people Haskell-related from beginners, to seasoned hackers to academic giants. All and more are welcomed by large fuzzy green lambdas. Anglo Haskell has happened for the last two years and we see no reason why it should not happen again this year. For the last two years they've tended to have talks on Fridays and then Other Things on the Saturday (including Punting and Group Hacking, some or more of which may have happened in Pubs). We're proposing the same general format this year. In contrast to the last two years which have been held at MSR Cambridge (UK), we're this year proposing to hold the event at Imperial College, London. London is probably easier to get to and from (though more tedious to get across) than Cambridge and we hope this will attract people who previously have not been able to get out to Cambridge. The proposed dates are Friday the 8th and Saturday the 9th of August. More details are available on the wikipage: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/AngloHaskell/2008 Please feel free to add to this page. If you're at all interested in coming along then please add your name to the wikipage. If you're interested in giving a talk - on literally anything Haskell related: this is not a solely theory day or solely a practical day; anything goes which is Haskell related - then similarly add yourself to the list of speakers. Schedule and other details will be confirmed soon. Lodging, travel and all other related matters will be discussed on the irc channel (and will eventually migrate to the wikipage) #anglohaskell. If you're free that weekend then please come along! Also, if you'd really like to come but can't make those dates and there are many of you then please shout loudly and things could potentially be moved, though with the lack of time left before the event, we'd prefer to avoid this. Matthew From dekudekuplex at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 03:39:39 2008 From: dekudekuplex at yahoo.com (Benjamin L. Russell) Date: Wed Jul 2 03:30:46 2008 Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <576650.92747.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no negative responses. In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list advising readers on how to react. Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow, had originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in this thread or, after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have mixed feelings regarding this idea. In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive. Participation by educators using Haskell, once Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome. Please post your responses initially in this thread. After a few rounds, this discussion will probably move to Haskell-Cafe. -- Benjamin L. Russell --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell wrote: > From: Benjamin L. Russell > Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list > To: "The Haskell Mailing List" > Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM > I am interested in starting a new mailing list on > Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and > elementary-level learners of Haskell, called > "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing > List." This new mailing list would be guided by the > principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but > also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts > education, on a par with Scheme. When I suggested the idea > of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org > mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this > idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here > to ask for feedback. > > The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would > be as follows: > > 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion > forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the > uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in > introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to > in research. > > 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion > forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students > of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for > learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal > arts education, as opposed to an > engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. > > Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists: > > a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for > announcements and for non-beginner discussions > > b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for > everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious > academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of > the language Haskell. > > Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for > teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts > education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly > responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have > witnessed several instances in which new users who were not > familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have > been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not > assume enough mathematical background, or for posting > messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and > that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the > mailing list. > > (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a > private e-mail message from another poster asking the > former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing > List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow > related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points > randomly from a square in approximating pi. Avoiding this > question required the knowledge that screen resolution > could be considered independently from the precision of the > algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to > mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar > enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and > received the above-mentioned response.) > > This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue > of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum, > and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from > students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics > background. The primary audience of this new mailing list > would be educators and students in a liberal arts > curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for > studying functional programming. Currently, the language > Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is > not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has > recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming > language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell > may either not have a computer science background, or may > not have a sophisticated mathematical background. Posts > from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers, > who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find > valuable information to aid their research, but may be > welcome > in a more education-focused context. > > It would seem that creating a new mailing list, > Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching > programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding > questions from students in that context, would help > increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread > knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in > industry. Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could > discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and > students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background > would be able to ask elementary questions to educators > willing to discuss such questions, without being expected > to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science > background. > > -- Benjamin L. Russell > > --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow > wrote: > > > From: Simon Marlow > > Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing > list > > To: "Benjamin L. Russell" > > > Cc: "John Peterson" > > > Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM > > Hi Benjamin, > > > > Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list > has > > a narrow > > focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche. In this > case > > you're > > proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it > > needs discussion > > amongst the community before we create the list, so > that we > > can keep a > > consistent strategy. > > > > That's not to say that I disagree with your > proposal. > > But it doesn't > > seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and > why > > haskell-cafe > > shouldn't serve the purpose. One thing that > isn't > > clear is whether the > > list you're proposing is for people interested in > > *teaching* Haskell (in > > which case I'd say it's a great idea), or > people > > *learning* Haskell (in > > which case I'd consider carefully whether > haskell-cafe > > shoudn't be > > serving that need). That's something you need to > > clarify when proposing > > this list to the community. > > > > So I suggest you send this proposal out to > > haskell@haskell.org in the > > first instance, and see what response you get. > Discussion > > should move > > to haskell-cafe quickly. > > > > Cheers, > > Simon > > > > Benjamin L. Russell wrote: > > > Greetings, > > > > > > John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail > > message requesting you to perform set-up of a new > > Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to > > moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the > > administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org. > > > > > > My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am > interested in > > starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan > to call > > Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research > > beginner-level educational matters, guided by the > > philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to > > non-computer science major students. > > > > > > This topic is not covered by any of the other > mailing > > lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and > Haskell-Cafe > > for the past six months or so, but the former is > devoted to > > announcements, and the latter de facto to research > matters. > > Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly > academic > > and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an > > unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science > majors > > interested in learning Haskell. > > > > > > Since John Peterson recommended that I request > you to > > set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you > please > > set it whenever you have free time, as follows: > > > > > > Name of Mailing List: Haskell-Edu > > > E-mail Address: haskell-edu@haskell.org > > > Description: The Haskell-Edu Mailing > List: > > Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in > > Education > > > > > > Could you please advise me on what I need to do > to > > start this mailing list? Should I host it on > haskell.org, > > or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org > mailing > > list service? Also, how should I have it listed in > the > > "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" > > (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the > > benefit of other members of the Haskell community? > > > > > > Thank you very much for your time and > cooperation. > > > > > > Sincerely yours, > > > > > > Benjamin L. Russell > > > > > > --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson > > wrote: > > > > > >> From: John Peterson > > > >> Subject: RE: on starting a new > Haskell-related > > mailing list > > >> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" > > > > >> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM > > >> Hi Benjamin, > > >> > > >> There's no problem starting a new mailing > > list. Simon > > >> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if > you > > drop him > > >> and email he'll do the setup for > Haskell.org. > > Once the > > >> list is going, you can go into the wiki and > add it > > to the > > >> appropriate pages. > > >> > > >> We've had a bunch of these special > interest > > lists and > > >> most of them go dead after a few months but > you > > never know > > >> ... > > >> > > >> > > >> John > > > > > > --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell > > wrote: > > > > > >> From: Benjamin L. Russell > > > > >> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related > mailing > > list > > >> To: "John Peterson" > > > > >> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM > > >> Greetings, > > >> > > >> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am > > interested in > > >> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which > I > > plan to > > >> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to > > non-research > > >> beginner-level educational matters, guided by > the > > >> philosophy that Haskell should be more > accessible > > to > > >> non-computer science major students. (This > > message is > > >> being addressed to you because I had already > sent > > the > > >> portion below twice to other administrators > at > > Haskell.org, > > >> first to mailman-owner@haskell.org, and then > to > > >> simonmarhaskell@gmail.com, but had not > received a > > response > > >> on either occasion.) > > >> > > >> This topic is not covered by any of the other > > mailing > > >> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell > and > > Haskell-Cafe > > >> for the past six months or so, but the former > is > > devoted to > > >> announcements, and the latter de facto to > research > > matters. > > >> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is > overly > > academic > > >> and research-oriented, and I feel that this > > creates an > > >> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer > > science majors > > >> interested in learning Haskell. > > >> > > >> Could you please advise me on what I need to > do to > > start > > >> this mailing list? Should I host it on > > haskell.org, or > > >> just start it by myself using a > non-Haskell.org > > mailing > > >> list service? Also, how should I have it > listed > > in the > > >> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" > > >> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) > page for > > the > > >> benefit of other members of the Haskell > community? > > >> > > >> Thank you very much for your time and > cooperation. > > >> > > >> Sincerely yours, > > >> > > >> Benjamin L. Russell > _______________________________________________ > Haskell mailing list > Haskell@haskell.org > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell From mvanier at cs.caltech.edu Wed Jul 2 03:58:08 2008 From: mvanier at cs.caltech.edu (Michael Vanier) Date: Wed Jul 2 03:49:18 2008 Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <576650.92747.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <576650.92747.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <486B3510.7020706@cs.caltech.edu> FYI there is precedent for this kind of thing in the functional programming world. PLT Scheme has a Scheme mailing list and also a Scheme-in-education mailing list, which tackles the problems of trying to teach Scheme to new programmers. If you start such a mailing list for Haskell, I'd like to be on it. Mike Benjamin L. Russell wrote: > So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no negative responses. > > In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list advising readers on how to react. Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow, had originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in this thread or, after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have mixed feelings regarding this idea. > > In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive. Participation by educators using Haskell, once Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome. > > Please post your responses initially in this thread. After a few rounds, this discussion will probably move to Haskell-Cafe. > > -- Benjamin L. Russell > > --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell wrote: > >> From: Benjamin L. Russell >> Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list >> To: "The Haskell Mailing List" >> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM >> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on >> Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and >> elementary-level learners of Haskell, called >> "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing >> List." This new mailing list would be guided by the >> principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but >> also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts >> education, on a par with Scheme. When I suggested the idea >> of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org >> mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this >> idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here >> to ask for feedback. >> >> The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would >> be as follows: >> >> 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion >> forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the >> uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in >> introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to >> in research. >> >> 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion >> forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students >> of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for >> learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal >> arts education, as opposed to an >> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. >> >> Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists: >> >> a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for >> announcements and for non-beginner discussions >> >> b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for >> everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious >> academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of >> the language Haskell. >> >> Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for >> teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts >> education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly >> responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have >> witnessed several instances in which new users who were not >> familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have >> been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not >> assume enough mathematical background, or for posting >> messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and >> that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the >> mailing list. >> >> (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a >> private e-mail message from another poster asking the >> former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing >> List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow >> related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points >> randomly from a square in approximating pi. Avoiding this >> question required the knowledge that screen resolution >> could be considered independently from the precision of the >> algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to >> mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar >> enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and >> received the above-mentioned response.) >> >> This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue >> of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum, >> and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from >> students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics >> background. The primary audience of this new mailing list >> would be educators and students in a liberal arts >> curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for >> studying functional programming. Currently, the language >> Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is >> not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has >> recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming >> language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell >> may either not have a computer science background, or may >> not have a sophisticated mathematical background. Posts >> from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers, >> who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find >> valuable information to aid their research, but may be >> welcome >> in a more education-focused context. >> >> It would seem that creating a new mailing list, >> Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching >> programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding >> questions from students in that context, would help >> increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread >> knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in >> industry. Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could >> discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and >> students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background >> would be able to ask elementary questions to educators >> willing to discuss such questions, without being expected >> to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science >> background. >> >> -- Benjamin L. Russell >> >> --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow >> wrote: >> >>> From: Simon Marlow >>> Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing >> list >>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >> >>> Cc: "John Peterson" >> >>> Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM >>> Hi Benjamin, >>> >>> Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list >> has >>> a narrow >>> focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche. In this >> case >>> you're >>> proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it >>> needs discussion >>> amongst the community before we create the list, so >> that we >>> can keep a >>> consistent strategy. >>> >>> That's not to say that I disagree with your >> proposal. >>> But it doesn't >>> seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and >> why >>> haskell-cafe >>> shouldn't serve the purpose. One thing that >> isn't >>> clear is whether the >>> list you're proposing is for people interested in >>> *teaching* Haskell (in >>> which case I'd say it's a great idea), or >> people >>> *learning* Haskell (in >>> which case I'd consider carefully whether >> haskell-cafe >>> shoudn't be >>> serving that need). That's something you need to >>> clarify when proposing >>> this list to the community. >>> >>> So I suggest you send this proposal out to >>> haskell@haskell.org in the >>> first instance, and see what response you get. >> Discussion >>> should move >>> to haskell-cafe quickly. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Simon >>> >>> Benjamin L. Russell wrote: >>>> Greetings, >>>> >>>> John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail >>> message requesting you to perform set-up of a new >>> Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to >>> moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the >>> administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org. >>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >> interested in >>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan >> to call >>> Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research >>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by the >>> philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to >>> non-computer science major students. >>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other >> mailing >>> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and >> Haskell-Cafe >>> for the past six months or so, but the former is >> devoted to >>> announcements, and the latter de facto to research >> matters. >>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly >> academic >>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an >>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science >> majors >>> interested in learning Haskell. >>>> Since John Peterson recommended that I request >> you to >>> set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you >> please >>> set it whenever you have free time, as follows: >>>> Name of Mailing List: Haskell-Edu >>>> E-mail Address: haskell-edu@haskell.org >>>> Description: The Haskell-Edu Mailing >> List: >>> Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in >>> Education >>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to do >> to >>> start this mailing list? Should I host it on >> haskell.org, >>> or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org >> mailing >>> list service? Also, how should I have it listed in >> the >>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the >>> benefit of other members of the Haskell community? >>>> Thank you very much for your time and >> cooperation. >>>> Sincerely yours, >>>> >>>> Benjamin L. Russell >>>> >>>> --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson >>> wrote: >>>>> From: John Peterson >> >>>>> Subject: RE: on starting a new >> Haskell-related >>> mailing list >>>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >>> >>>>> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM >>>>> Hi Benjamin, >>>>> >>>>> There's no problem starting a new mailing >>> list. Simon >>>>> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if >> you >>> drop him >>>>> and email he'll do the setup for >> Haskell.org. >>> Once the >>>>> list is going, you can go into the wiki and >> add it >>> to the >>>>> appropriate pages. >>>>> >>>>> We've had a bunch of these special >> interest >>> lists and >>>>> most of them go dead after a few months but >> you >>> never know >>>>> ... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> John >>>> --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell >>> wrote: >>>>> From: Benjamin L. Russell >>> >>>>> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related >> mailing >>> list >>>>> To: "John Peterson" >>> >>>>> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM >>>>> Greetings, >>>>> >>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >>> interested in >>>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which >> I >>> plan to >>>>> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to >>> non-research >>>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by >> the >>>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more >> accessible >>> to >>>>> non-computer science major students. (This >>> message is >>>>> being addressed to you because I had already >> sent >>> the >>>>> portion below twice to other administrators >> at >>> Haskell.org, >>>>> first to mailman-owner@haskell.org, and then >> to >>>>> simonmarhaskell@gmail.com, but had not >> received a >>> response >>>>> on either occasion.) >>>>> >>>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other >>> mailing >>>>> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell >> and >>> Haskell-Cafe >>>>> for the past six months or so, but the former >> is >>> devoted to >>>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to >> research >>> matters. >>>>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is >> overly >>> academic >>>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this >>> creates an >>>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer >>> science majors >>>>> interested in learning Haskell. >>>>> >>>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to >> do to >>> start >>>>> this mailing list? Should I host it on >>> haskell.org, or >>>>> just start it by myself using a >> non-Haskell.org >>> mailing >>>>> list service? Also, how should I have it >> listed >>> in the >>>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >>>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) >> page for >>> the >>>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell >> community? >>>>> Thank you very much for your time and >> cooperation. >>>>> Sincerely yours, >>>>> >>>>> Benjamin L. Russell >> _______________________________________________ >> Haskell mailing list >> Haskell@haskell.org >> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell > _______________________________________________ > Haskell mailing list > Haskell@haskell.org > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell From DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 05:34:06 2008 From: DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com (Benjamin L.Russell) Date: Wed Jul 2 05:31:20 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list References: <576650.92747.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <486B3510.7020706@cs.caltech.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 00:58:08 -0700, Michael Vanier wrote: >FYI there is precedent for this kind of thing in the functional programming world. PLT Scheme has a >Scheme mailing list and also a Scheme-in-education mailing list, which tackles the problems of >trying to teach Scheme to new programmers. If you start such a mailing list for Haskell, I'd like >to be on it. Thank you for your response. It is interesting that you should mention PLT Scheme in particular, because my idea was actually indirectly influenced by the education-oriented culture on the plt-scheme mailing list, where I also participate. I use both Hugs (in addition to GHC) and DrScheme frequently in studying Haskell and Scheme, and often write equivalent programs in both Haskell and Scheme. The two main functional programming languages that I studied in college were Scheme and Haskell as well. Having seen the usefulness of Scheme in studying programming as part of a liberal arts education there, I wondered whether Haskell could not also fulfill this role. I saw no reason that it couldn't. However, over the last six months or so, I noticed that the same kind of beginner-level questions on both languages tended to generate quite different responses on plt-scheme and haskell-cafe. Most of the people there are educators, as opposed to researchers, and they tend to be less impatient and more responsive to beginner-level questions on the language, but there is less discussion there of research-level topics. It seemed that beginner-level discussion and research-level discussion were each better served by different audiences, and that beginner-level questions tended to bore and irritate researchers, while research-level discussion tended to intimidate and weed out beginners, particularly those either lacking mathematical sophistication or who did not write in a formal, academic style. This distinction seemed to become especially significant in mathematical topics. Thus, I perceived a need for a less research-oriented, more liberal arts-oriented discussion forum for educators and beginner-level students of Haskell. This is what led to my proposal. As an aside, these two languages seem to have an indirect influence on each other. For example, recently, a variety of Scheme called "Typed Scheme" has appeared (as a part of PLT Scheme), whose syntax loosely resembles Haskell. Originally, it did not have type signatures, but these were added later, most likely as a result of influence from either Haskell or a very similar typed functional programming language. On the other hand, in the paper "A History of Haskell: Being Lazy With Class" (http://research.microsoft.com/~simonpj/papers/history-of-haskell/history.pdf), the authors quote (on page 3) an anonymous reviewer as writing the following: > "An interesting sidelight is that the Friedman and Wise paper ["Cons should > not evaluate its arguments" (Friedman and Wise, 1976)] inspired Sussman > and Steele to examine lazy evaluation in Scheme, and for a time they > weighed whether to make the revised version of Scheme call-by-name or > call-by-value. They eventually chose to retain the original call-by-value > design, reasoning that it seemed much easier to simulate call-by-name in a > call-by-value language (using lambda-expressions as thunks) than to > simulate call-by-value in a call-by-name language (which requires a separate > evaluation-forcing mechanism). Whatever we might think of that > reasoning, we can only speculate on how different the academic > programming-language landscape might be today had they made the > opposite decision." The influence of Scheme and the participation of Gerry Sussman in early academic conferences in the evolution of functional programming is also mentioned in several other places in that paper on Haskell. In addition, the HaskellWiki page on "Continuation" (http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Continuation) specifically cites Haskellized Scheme examples from Wikipedia. All this has led me to believe that Haskell should be fully capable of fulfilling a non-strict, purely functional alternative of Scheme, based on the simply typed, rather than the untyped, lambda calculus, in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts curriculum, too. But first, we probably need an appropriate mailing list for this kind of discussion. -- Benjamin L. Russell >Benjamin L. Russell wrote: >> So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no negative responses. >> >> In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list advising readers on how to react. Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow, had originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in this thread or, after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have mixed feelings regarding this idea. >> >> In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive. Participation by educators using Haskell, once Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome. >> >> Please post your responses initially in this thread. After a few rounds, this discussion will probably move to Haskell-Cafe. >> >> -- Benjamin L. Russell >> >> --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell wrote: >> >>> From: Benjamin L. Russell >>> Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list >>> To: "The Haskell Mailing List" >>> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM >>> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on >>> Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and >>> elementary-level learners of Haskell, called >>> "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing >>> List." This new mailing list would be guided by the >>> principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but >>> also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts >>> education, on a par with Scheme. When I suggested the idea >>> of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org >>> mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this >>> idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here >>> to ask for feedback. >>> >>> The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would >>> be as follows: >>> >>> 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion >>> forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the >>> uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in >>> introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to >>> in research. >>> >>> 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion >>> forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students >>> of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for >>> learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal >>> arts education, as opposed to an >>> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. >>> >>> Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists: >>> >>> a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for >>> announcements and for non-beginner discussions >>> >>> b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for >>> everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious >>> academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of >>> the language Haskell. >>> >>> Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for >>> teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts >>> education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly >>> responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have >>> witnessed several instances in which new users who were not >>> familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have >>> been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not >>> assume enough mathematical background, or for posting >>> messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and >>> that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the >>> mailing list. >>> >>> (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a >>> private e-mail message from another poster asking the >>> former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing >>> List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow >>> related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points >>> randomly from a square in approximating pi. Avoiding this >>> question required the knowledge that screen resolution >>> could be considered independently from the precision of the >>> algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to >>> mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar >>> enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and >>> received the above-mentioned response.) >>> >>> This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue >>> of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum, >>> and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from >>> students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics >>> background. The primary audience of this new mailing list >>> would be educators and students in a liberal arts >>> curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for >>> studying functional programming. Currently, the language >>> Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is >>> not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has >>> recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming >>> language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell >>> may either not have a computer science background, or may >>> not have a sophisticated mathematical background. Posts >>> from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers, >>> who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find >>> valuable information to aid their research, but may be >>> welcome >>> in a more education-focused context. >>> >>> It would seem that creating a new mailing list, >>> Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching >>> programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding >>> questions from students in that context, would help >>> increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread >>> knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in >>> industry. Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could >>> discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and >>> students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background >>> would be able to ask elementary questions to educators >>> willing to discuss such questions, without being expected >>> to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science >>> background. >>> >>> -- Benjamin L. Russell >>> >>> --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow >>> wrote: >>> >>>> From: Simon Marlow >>>> Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing >>> list >>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >>> >>>> Cc: "John Peterson" >>> >>>> Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM >>>> Hi Benjamin, >>>> >>>> Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list >>> has >>>> a narrow >>>> focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche. In this >>> case >>>> you're >>>> proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it >>>> needs discussion >>>> amongst the community before we create the list, so >>> that we >>>> can keep a >>>> consistent strategy. >>>> >>>> That's not to say that I disagree with your >>> proposal. >>>> But it doesn't >>>> seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and >>> why >>>> haskell-cafe >>>> shouldn't serve the purpose. One thing that >>> isn't >>>> clear is whether the >>>> list you're proposing is for people interested in >>>> *teaching* Haskell (in >>>> which case I'd say it's a great idea), or >>> people >>>> *learning* Haskell (in >>>> which case I'd consider carefully whether >>> haskell-cafe >>>> shoudn't be >>>> serving that need). That's something you need to >>>> clarify when proposing >>>> this list to the community. >>>> >>>> So I suggest you send this proposal out to >>>> haskell@haskell.org in the >>>> first instance, and see what response you get. >>> Discussion >>>> should move >>>> to haskell-cafe quickly. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Simon >>>> >>>> Benjamin L. Russell wrote: >>>>> Greetings, >>>>> >>>>> John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail >>>> message requesting you to perform set-up of a new >>>> Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to >>>> moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the >>>> administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org. >>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >>> interested in >>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan >>> to call >>>> Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research >>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by the >>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to >>>> non-computer science major students. >>>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other >>> mailing >>>> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and >>> Haskell-Cafe >>>> for the past six months or so, but the former is >>> devoted to >>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to research >>> matters. >>>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly >>> academic >>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an >>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science >>> majors >>>> interested in learning Haskell. >>>>> Since John Peterson recommended that I request >>> you to >>>> set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you >>> please >>>> set it whenever you have free time, as follows: >>>>> Name of Mailing List: Haskell-Edu >>>>> E-mail Address: haskell-edu@haskell.org >>>>> Description: The Haskell-Edu Mailing >>> List: >>>> Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in >>>> Education >>>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to do >>> to >>>> start this mailing list? Should I host it on >>> haskell.org, >>>> or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org >>> mailing >>>> list service? Also, how should I have it listed in >>> the >>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the >>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell community? >>>>> Thank you very much for your time and >>> cooperation. >>>>> Sincerely yours, >>>>> >>>>> Benjamin L. Russell >>>>> >>>>> --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson >>>> wrote: >>>>>> From: John Peterson >>> >>>>>> Subject: RE: on starting a new >>> Haskell-related >>>> mailing list >>>>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >>>> >>>>>> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM >>>>>> Hi Benjamin, >>>>>> >>>>>> There's no problem starting a new mailing >>>> list. Simon >>>>>> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if >>> you >>>> drop him >>>>>> and email he'll do the setup for >>> Haskell.org. >>>> Once the >>>>>> list is going, you can go into the wiki and >>> add it >>>> to the >>>>>> appropriate pages. >>>>>> >>>>>> We've had a bunch of these special >>> interest >>>> lists and >>>>>> most of them go dead after a few months but >>> you >>>> never know >>>>>> ... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> John >>>>> --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell >>>> wrote: >>>>>> From: Benjamin L. Russell >>>> >>>>>> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related >>> mailing >>>> list >>>>>> To: "John Peterson" >>>> >>>>>> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM >>>>>> Greetings, >>>>>> >>>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >>>> interested in >>>>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which >>> I >>>> plan to >>>>>> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to >>>> non-research >>>>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by >>> the >>>>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more >>> accessible >>>> to >>>>>> non-computer science major students. (This >>>> message is >>>>>> being addressed to you because I had already >>> sent >>>> the >>>>>> portion below twice to other administrators >>> at >>>> Haskell.org, >>>>>> first to mailman-owner@haskell.org, and then >>> to >>>>>> simonmarhaskell@gmail.com, but had not >>> received a >>>> response >>>>>> on either occasion.) >>>>>> >>>>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other >>>> mailing >>>>>> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell >>> and >>>> Haskell-Cafe >>>>>> for the past six months or so, but the former >>> is >>>> devoted to >>>>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to >>> research >>>> matters. >>>>>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is >>> overly >>>> academic >>>>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this >>>> creates an >>>>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer >>>> science majors >>>>>> interested in learning Haskell. >>>>>> >>>>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to >>> do to >>>> start >>>>>> this mailing list? Should I host it on >>>> haskell.org, or >>>>>> just start it by myself using a >>> non-Haskell.org >>>> mailing >>>>>> list service? Also, how should I have it >>> listed >>>> in the >>>>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >>>>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) >>> page for >>>> the >>>>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell >>> community? >>>>>> Thank you very much for your time and >>> cooperation. >>>>>> Sincerely yours, >>>>>> >>>>>> Benjamin L. Russell >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Haskell mailing list >>> Haskell@haskell.org >>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell >> _______________________________________________ >> Haskell mailing list >> Haskell@haskell.org >> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell From mvanier at cs.caltech.edu Wed Jul 2 05:49:57 2008 From: mvanier at cs.caltech.edu (Michael Vanier) Date: Wed Jul 2 05:41:08 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: References: <576650.92747.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <486B3510.7020706@cs.caltech.edu> Message-ID: <486B4F45.6080500@cs.caltech.edu> Just one nit to pick: AFAIK Haskell's type system is _way_ beyond simply typed lambda calculus, and is closer to system F (experts can weigh in here). Not that this invalidates any of your other points. Also, I surmise that a big reason Scheme went the strict route is that it made it much easier to handle side-effecting computations. Mike Benjamin L.Russell wrote: > On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 00:58:08 -0700, Michael Vanier > wrote: > >> FYI there is precedent for this kind of thing in the functional programming world. PLT Scheme has a >> Scheme mailing list and also a Scheme-in-education mailing list, which tackles the problems of >> trying to teach Scheme to new programmers. If you start such a mailing list for Haskell, I'd like >> to be on it. > > Thank you for your response. > > It is interesting that you should mention PLT Scheme in particular, > because my idea was actually indirectly influenced by the > education-oriented culture on the plt-scheme mailing list, where I > also participate. I use both Hugs (in addition to GHC) and DrScheme > frequently in studying Haskell and Scheme, and often write equivalent > programs in both Haskell and Scheme. The two main functional > programming languages that I studied in college were Scheme and > Haskell as well. > > Having seen the usefulness of Scheme in studying programming as part > of a liberal arts education there, I wondered whether Haskell could > not also fulfill this role. I saw no reason that it couldn't. > > However, over the last six months or so, I noticed that the same kind > of beginner-level questions on both languages tended to generate quite > different responses on plt-scheme and haskell-cafe. Most of the > people there are educators, as opposed to researchers, and they tend > to be less impatient and more responsive to beginner-level questions > on the language, but there is less discussion there of research-level > topics. It seemed that beginner-level discussion and research-level > discussion were each better served by different audiences, and that > beginner-level questions tended to bore and irritate researchers, > while research-level discussion tended to intimidate and weed out > beginners, particularly those either lacking mathematical > sophistication or who did not write in a formal, academic style. This > distinction seemed to become especially significant in mathematical > topics. > > Thus, I perceived a need for a less research-oriented, more liberal > arts-oriented discussion forum for educators and beginner-level > students of Haskell. This is what led to my proposal. > > As an aside, these two languages seem to have an indirect influence on > each other. For example, recently, a variety of Scheme called "Typed > Scheme" has appeared (as a part of PLT Scheme), whose syntax loosely > resembles Haskell. Originally, it did not have type signatures, but > these were added later, most likely as a result of influence from > either Haskell or a very similar typed functional programming > language. > > On the other hand, in the paper "A History of Haskell: Being Lazy With > Class" > (http://research.microsoft.com/~simonpj/papers/history-of-haskell/history.pdf), > the authors quote (on page 3) an anonymous reviewer as writing the > following: > >> "An interesting sidelight is that the Friedman and Wise paper ["Cons should >> not evaluate its arguments" (Friedman and Wise, 1976)] inspired Sussman >> and Steele to examine lazy evaluation in Scheme, and for a time they >> weighed whether to make the revised version of Scheme call-by-name or >> call-by-value. They eventually chose to retain the original call-by-value >> design, reasoning that it seemed much easier to simulate call-by-name in a >> call-by-value language (using lambda-expressions as thunks) than to >> simulate call-by-value in a call-by-name language (which requires a separate >> evaluation-forcing mechanism). Whatever we might think of that >> reasoning, we can only speculate on how different the academic >> programming-language landscape might be today had they made the >> opposite decision." > > The influence of Scheme and the participation of Gerry Sussman in > early academic conferences in the evolution of functional programming > is also mentioned in several other places in that paper on Haskell. > > In addition, the HaskellWiki page on "Continuation" > (http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Continuation) specifically cites > Haskellized Scheme examples from Wikipedia. > > All this has led me to believe that Haskell should be fully capable of > fulfilling a non-strict, purely functional alternative of Scheme, > based on the simply typed, rather than the untyped, lambda calculus, > in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts curriculum, too. > > But first, we probably need an appropriate mailing list for this kind > of discussion. > > -- Benjamin L. Russell > >> Benjamin L. Russell wrote: >>> So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no negative responses. >>> >>> In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list advising readers on how to react. Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow, had originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in this thread or, after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have mixed feelings regarding this idea. >>> >>> In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive. Participation by educators using Haskell, once Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome. >>> >>> Please post your responses initially in this thread. After a few rounds, this discussion will probably move to Haskell-Cafe. >>> >>> -- Benjamin L. Russell >>> >>> --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell wrote: >>> >>>> From: Benjamin L. Russell >>>> Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list >>>> To: "The Haskell Mailing List" >>>> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM >>>> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on >>>> Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and >>>> elementary-level learners of Haskell, called >>>> "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing >>>> List." This new mailing list would be guided by the >>>> principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but >>>> also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts >>>> education, on a par with Scheme. When I suggested the idea >>>> of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org >>>> mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this >>>> idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here >>>> to ask for feedback. >>>> >>>> The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would >>>> be as follows: >>>> >>>> 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion >>>> forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the >>>> uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in >>>> introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to >>>> in research. >>>> >>>> 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion >>>> forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students >>>> of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for >>>> learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal >>>> arts education, as opposed to an >>>> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. >>>> >>>> Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists: >>>> >>>> a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for >>>> announcements and for non-beginner discussions >>>> >>>> b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for >>>> everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious >>>> academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of >>>> the language Haskell. >>>> >>>> Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for >>>> teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts >>>> education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly >>>> responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have >>>> witnessed several instances in which new users who were not >>>> familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have >>>> been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not >>>> assume enough mathematical background, or for posting >>>> messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and >>>> that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the >>>> mailing list. >>>> >>>> (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a >>>> private e-mail message from another poster asking the >>>> former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing >>>> List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow >>>> related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points >>>> randomly from a square in approximating pi. Avoiding this >>>> question required the knowledge that screen resolution >>>> could be considered independently from the precision of the >>>> algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to >>>> mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar >>>> enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and >>>> received the above-mentioned response.) >>>> >>>> This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue >>>> of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum, >>>> and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from >>>> students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics >>>> background. The primary audience of this new mailing list >>>> would be educators and students in a liberal arts >>>> curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for >>>> studying functional programming. Currently, the language >>>> Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is >>>> not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has >>>> recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming >>>> language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell >>>> may either not have a computer science background, or may >>>> not have a sophisticated mathematical background. Posts >>>> from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers, >>>> who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find >>>> valuable information to aid their research, but may be >>>> welcome >>>> in a more education-focused context. >>>> >>>> It would seem that creating a new mailing list, >>>> Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching >>>> programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding >>>> questions from students in that context, would help >>>> increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread >>>> knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in >>>> industry. Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could >>>> discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and >>>> students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background >>>> would be able to ask elementary questions to educators >>>> willing to discuss such questions, without being expected >>>> to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science >>>> background. >>>> >>>> -- Benjamin L. Russell >>>> >>>> --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> From: Simon Marlow >>>>> Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing >>>> list >>>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >>>> >>>>> Cc: "John Peterson" >>>> >>>>> Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM >>>>> Hi Benjamin, >>>>> >>>>> Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list >>>> has >>>>> a narrow >>>>> focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche. In this >>>> case >>>>> you're >>>>> proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it >>>>> needs discussion >>>>> amongst the community before we create the list, so >>>> that we >>>>> can keep a >>>>> consistent strategy. >>>>> >>>>> That's not to say that I disagree with your >>>> proposal. >>>>> But it doesn't >>>>> seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and >>>> why >>>>> haskell-cafe >>>>> shouldn't serve the purpose. One thing that >>>> isn't >>>>> clear is whether the >>>>> list you're proposing is for people interested in >>>>> *teaching* Haskell (in >>>>> which case I'd say it's a great idea), or >>>> people >>>>> *learning* Haskell (in >>>>> which case I'd consider carefully whether >>>> haskell-cafe >>>>> shoudn't be >>>>> serving that need). That's something you need to >>>>> clarify when proposing >>>>> this list to the community. >>>>> >>>>> So I suggest you send this proposal out to >>>>> haskell@haskell.org in the >>>>> first instance, and see what response you get. >>>> Discussion >>>>> should move >>>>> to haskell-cafe quickly. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Simon >>>>> >>>>> Benjamin L. Russell wrote: >>>>>> Greetings, >>>>>> >>>>>> John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail >>>>> message requesting you to perform set-up of a new >>>>> Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to >>>>> moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the >>>>> administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org. >>>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >>>> interested in >>>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan >>>> to call >>>>> Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research >>>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by the >>>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to >>>>> non-computer science major students. >>>>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other >>>> mailing >>>>> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and >>>> Haskell-Cafe >>>>> for the past six months or so, but the former is >>>> devoted to >>>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to research >>>> matters. >>>>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly >>>> academic >>>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an >>>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science >>>> majors >>>>> interested in learning Haskell. >>>>>> Since John Peterson recommended that I request >>>> you to >>>>> set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you >>>> please >>>>> set it whenever you have free time, as follows: >>>>>> Name of Mailing List: Haskell-Edu >>>>>> E-mail Address: haskell-edu@haskell.org >>>>>> Description: The Haskell-Edu Mailing >>>> List: >>>>> Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in >>>>> Education >>>>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to do >>>> to >>>>> start this mailing list? Should I host it on >>>> haskell.org, >>>>> or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org >>>> mailing >>>>> list service? Also, how should I have it listed in >>>> the >>>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >>>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the >>>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell community? >>>>>> Thank you very much for your time and >>>> cooperation. >>>>>> Sincerely yours, >>>>>> >>>>>> Benjamin L. Russell >>>>>> >>>>>> --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> From: John Peterson >>>> >>>>>>> Subject: RE: on starting a new >>>> Haskell-related >>>>> mailing list >>>>>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >>>>> >>>>>>> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM >>>>>>> Hi Benjamin, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There's no problem starting a new mailing >>>>> list. Simon >>>>>>> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if >>>> you >>>>> drop him >>>>>>> and email he'll do the setup for >>>> Haskell.org. >>>>> Once the >>>>>>> list is going, you can go into the wiki and >>>> add it >>>>> to the >>>>>>> appropriate pages. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We've had a bunch of these special >>>> interest >>>>> lists and >>>>>>> most of them go dead after a few months but >>>> you >>>>> never know >>>>>>> ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John >>>>>> --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> From: Benjamin L. Russell >>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related >>>> mailing >>>>> list >>>>>>> To: "John Peterson" >>>>> >>>>>>> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM >>>>>>> Greetings, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >>>>> interested in >>>>>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which >>>> I >>>>> plan to >>>>>>> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to >>>>> non-research >>>>>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by >>>> the >>>>>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more >>>> accessible >>>>> to >>>>>>> non-computer science major students. (This >>>>> message is >>>>>>> being addressed to you because I had already >>>> sent >>>>> the >>>>>>> portion below twice to other administrators >>>> at >>>>> Haskell.org, >>>>>>> first to mailman-owner@haskell.org, and then >>>> to >>>>>>> simonmarhaskell@gmail.com, but had not >>>> received a >>>>> response >>>>>>> on either occasion.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other >>>>> mailing >>>>>>> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell >>>> and >>>>> Haskell-Cafe >>>>>>> for the past six months or so, but the former >>>> is >>>>> devoted to >>>>>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to >>>> research >>>>> matters. >>>>>>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is >>>> overly >>>>> academic >>>>>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this >>>>> creates an >>>>>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer >>>>> science majors >>>>>>> interested in learning Haskell. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to >>>> do to >>>>> start >>>>>>> this mailing list? Should I host it on >>>>> haskell.org, or >>>>>>> just start it by myself using a >>>> non-Haskell.org >>>>> mailing >>>>>>> list service? Also, how should I have it >>>> listed >>>>> in the >>>>>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >>>>>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) >>>> page for >>>>> the >>>>>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell >>>> community? >>>>>>> Thank you very much for your time and >>>> cooperation. >>>>>>> Sincerely yours, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Benjamin L. Russell >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Haskell mailing list >>>> Haskell@haskell.org >>>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Haskell mailing list >>> Haskell@haskell.org >>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell > > _______________________________________________ > Haskell mailing list > Haskell@haskell.org > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell From jur at cs.uu.nl Wed Jul 2 06:59:52 2008 From: jur at cs.uu.nl (jur) Date: Wed Jul 2 06:51:03 2008 Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jul 1, 2008, at 1:37 PM, Benjamin L. Russell wrote: > I am interested in starting a new mailing list on Haskell.org, aimed > mainly at liberal arts teachers and elementary-level learners of > Haskell, called "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing > List." This new mailing list would be guided by the principle that > Haskell is useful not just in research, but also in teaching > programming as part of a liberal arts education, on a par with > Scheme. When I suggested the idea of this mailing list to Simon > Marlow, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, he suggested > that I post this idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting > it here to ask for feedback. > > The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would be as > follows: > > 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to > serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the uses of Haskell in > education, such as in high school and in introductory computer > science college courses, as opposed to in research. > > 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to > serve the needs of non-computer-science students of Haskell who wish > to focus on Haskell as a language for learning programming as part > of a well-rounded a liberal arts education, as opposed to an > engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. > > Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists: > > a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for announcements > and for non-beginner discussions > > b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for everything else, > but in fact used primarily for serious academic computer-science > research-oriented discussion of the language Haskell. > > Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for teaching > functional programming as part of a liberal arts education, and > while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly responsible for addressing > beginner questions, I have witnessed several instances in which new > users who were not familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell > Cafe have been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not > assume enough mathematical background, or for posting messages that > were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and that therefore did not > fit into the serious tone of the mailing list. > > (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a private e-mail > message from another poster asking the former not to "pollute" The > Haskell-Cafe Mailing List for assuming that screen pixel resolution > was somehow related to the precision of an algorithm that picked > points randomly from a square in approximating pi. Avoiding this > question required the knowledge that screen resolution could be > considered independently from the precision of the algorithm itself, > but while this point may be elementary to mathematicians and > researchers, the poster was not familiar enough with the issue to > grasp this immediately, and received the above-mentioned response.) > > This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue of > teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum, and of > answering beginner questions about Haskell from students who may not > have a sophisticated mathematics background. The primary audience > of this new mailing list would be educators and students in a > liberal arts curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for > studying functional programming. Currently, the language Scheme is > often used in this context (even though Scheme is not a true > functional programming language), but Haskell has recently been > gaining ground rapidly as a programming language in industry as > well, and many students of Haskell may either not have a computer > science background, or may not have a sophisticated mathematical > background. Posts from such users may tend to irritate serious > researchers, who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find > valuable information to aid their research, but may be welcome > in a more education-focused context. > > It would seem that creating a new mailing list, Haskell-Edu, > focusing on using Haskell in teaching programming in a liberal arts > context, and fielding questions from students in that context, would > help increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread knowledge > about Haskell to potential future users in industry. Teachers in a > liberal arts curriculum could discuss teaching Haskell in a non- > research context, and students of Haskell with a liberal arts- > related background would be able to ask elementary questions to > educators willing to discuss such questions, without being expected > to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science background. > Hi all, I am all for a separate channel or resource for beginners in Haskell. I can imagine that even the run-of-the-mill discussions in the existing venues will scare them off. It might also be a good place for educators and students to talk about their experiences in teaching and being taught Haskell. E.g., what kind of assignments work, which don't. Also it will give me a venue to bring Helium to the attention of these beginners and their educators. I am currently bringing the Helium compiler up to speed (but this is not a formal announcement). However, if you simply cannot wait, set your browser to http://www.cs.uu.nl/wiki/Helium . cheers, Jur > --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow wrote: > >> From: Simon Marlow >> Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing list >> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >> Cc: "John Peterson" >> Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM >> Hi Benjamin, >> >> Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list has >> a narrow >> focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche. In this case >> you're >> proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it >> needs discussion >> amongst the community before we create the list, so that we >> can keep a >> consistent strategy. >> >> That's not to say that I disagree with your proposal. >> But it doesn't >> seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and why >> haskell-cafe >> shouldn't serve the purpose. One thing that isn't >> clear is whether the >> list you're proposing is for people interested in >> *teaching* Haskell (in >> which case I'd say it's a great idea), or people >> *learning* Haskell (in >> which case I'd consider carefully whether haskell-cafe >> shoudn't be >> serving that need). That's something you need to >> clarify when proposing >> this list to the community. >> >> So I suggest you send this proposal out to >> haskell@haskell.org in the >> first instance, and see what response you get. Discussion >> should move >> to haskell-cafe quickly. >> >> Cheers, >> Simon >> >> Benjamin L. Russell wrote: >>> Greetings, >>> >>> John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail >> message requesting you to perform set-up of a new >> Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to >> moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the >> administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org. >>> >>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am interested in >> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan to call >> Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research >> beginner-level educational matters, guided by the >> philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to >> non-computer science major students. >>> >>> This topic is not covered by any of the other mailing >> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and Haskell-Cafe >> for the past six months or so, but the former is devoted to >> announcements, and the latter de facto to research matters. >> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly academic >> and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an >> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science majors >> interested in learning Haskell. >>> >>> Since John Peterson recommended that I request you to >> set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you please >> set it whenever you have free time, as follows: >>> >>> Name of Mailing List: Haskell-Edu >>> E-mail Address: haskell-edu@haskell.org >>> Description: The Haskell-Edu Mailing List: >> Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in >> Education >>> >>> Could you please advise me on what I need to do to >> start this mailing list? Should I host it on haskell.org, >> or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org mailing >> list service? Also, how should I have it listed in the >> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the >> benefit of other members of the Haskell community? >>> >>> Thank you very much for your time and cooperation. >>> >>> Sincerely yours, >>> >>> Benjamin L. Russell >>> >>> --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson >> wrote: >>> >>>> From: John Peterson >>>> Subject: RE: on starting a new Haskell-related >> mailing list >>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >> >>>> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM >>>> Hi Benjamin, >>>> >>>> There's no problem starting a new mailing >> list. Simon >>>> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if you >> drop him >>>> and email he'll do the setup for Haskell.org. >> Once the >>>> list is going, you can go into the wiki and add it >> to the >>>> appropriate pages. >>>> >>>> We've had a bunch of these special interest >> lists and >>>> most of them go dead after a few months but you >> never know >>>> ... >>>> >>>> >>>> John >>> >>> --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell >> wrote: >>> >>>> From: Benjamin L. Russell >> >>>> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing >> list >>>> To: "John Peterson" >> >>>> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM >>>> Greetings, >>>> >>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >> interested in >>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I >> plan to >>>> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to >> non-research >>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by the >>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible >> to >>>> non-computer science major students. (This >> message is >>>> being addressed to you because I had already sent >> the >>>> portion below twice to other administrators at >> Haskell.org, >>>> first to mailman-owner@haskell.org, and then to >>>> simonmarhaskell@gmail.com, but had not received a >> response >>>> on either occasion.) >>>> >>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other >> mailing >>>> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and >> Haskell-Cafe >>>> for the past six months or so, but the former is >> devoted to >>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to research >> matters. >>>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly >> academic >>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this >> creates an >>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer >> science majors >>>> interested in learning Haskell. >>>> >>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to do to >> start >>>> this mailing list? Should I host it on >> haskell.org, or >>>> just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org >> mailing >>>> list service? Also, how should I have it listed >> in the >>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for >> the >>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell community? >>>> >>>> Thank you very much for your time and cooperation. >>>> >>>> Sincerely yours, >>>> >>>> Benjamin L. Russell > _______________________________________________ > Haskell mailing list > Haskell@haskell.org > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell From wagner.andrew at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 09:14:18 2008 From: wagner.andrew at gmail.com (Andrew Wagner) Date: Wed Jul 2 09:05:26 2008 Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <576650.92747.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <576650.92747.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I would certainly join such a list. My only concer would be that moderating such a list could be tricky. How do you judge when a discussion has become "too technical"? And what do you do about it? Force the members to take it to -cafe? Anyway, I like the idea of having a more beginner-friendly list, and have suggested something similar for the IRC channel multiple times. On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 3:39 AM, Benjamin L. Russell wrote: > So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no negative responses. > > In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list advising readers on how to react. Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow, had originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in this thread or, after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have mixed feelings regarding this idea. > > In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive. Participation by educators using Haskell, once Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome. > > Please post your responses initially in this thread. After a few rounds, this discussion will probably move to Haskell-Cafe. > > -- Benjamin L. Russell > > --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell wrote: > >> From: Benjamin L. Russell >> Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list >> To: "The Haskell Mailing List" >> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM >> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on >> Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and >> elementary-level learners of Haskell, called >> "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing >> List." This new mailing list would be guided by the >> principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but >> also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts >> education, on a par with Scheme. When I suggested the idea >> of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org >> mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this >> idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here >> to ask for feedback. >> >> The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would >> be as follows: >> >> 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion >> forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the >> uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in >> introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to >> in research. >> >> 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion >> forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students >> of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for >> learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal >> arts education, as opposed to an >> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. >> >> Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists: >> >> a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for >> announcements and for non-beginner discussions >> >> b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for >> everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious >> academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of >> the language Haskell. >> >> Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for >> teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts >> education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly >> responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have >> witnessed several instances in which new users who were not >> familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have >> been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not >> assume enough mathematical background, or for posting >> messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and >> that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the >> mailing list. >> >> (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a >> private e-mail message from another poster asking the >> former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing >> List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow >> related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points >> randomly from a square in approximating pi. Avoiding this >> question required the knowledge that screen resolution >> could be considered independently from the precision of the >> algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to >> mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar >> enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and >> received the above-mentioned response.) >> >> This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue >> of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum, >> and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from >> students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics >> background. The primary audience of this new mailing list >> would be educators and students in a liberal arts >> curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for >> studying functional programming. Currently, the language >> Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is >> not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has >> recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming >> language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell >> may either not have a computer science background, or may >> not have a sophisticated mathematical background. Posts >> from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers, >> who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find >> valuable information to aid their research, but may be >> welcome >> in a more education-focused context. >> >> It would seem that creating a new mailing list, >> Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching >> programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding >> questions from students in that context, would help >> increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread >> knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in >> industry. Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could >> discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and >> students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background >> would be able to ask elementary questions to educators >> willing to discuss such questions, without being expected >> to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science >> background. >> >> -- Benjamin L. Russell >> >> --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow >> wrote: >> >> > From: Simon Marlow >> > Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing >> list >> > To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >> >> > Cc: "John Peterson" >> >> > Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM >> > Hi Benjamin, >> > >> > Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list >> has >> > a narrow >> > focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche. In this >> case >> > you're >> > proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it >> > needs discussion >> > amongst the community before we create the list, so >> that we >> > can keep a >> > consistent strategy. >> > >> > That's not to say that I disagree with your >> proposal. >> > But it doesn't >> > seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and >> why >> > haskell-cafe >> > shouldn't serve the purpose. One thing that >> isn't >> > clear is whether the >> > list you're proposing is for people interested in >> > *teaching* Haskell (in >> > which case I'd say it's a great idea), or >> people >> > *learning* Haskell (in >> > which case I'd consider carefully whether >> haskell-cafe >> > shoudn't be >> > serving that need). That's something you need to >> > clarify when proposing >> > this list to the community. >> > >> > So I suggest you send this proposal out to >> > haskell@haskell.org in the >> > first instance, and see what response you get. >> Discussion >> > should move >> > to haskell-cafe quickly. >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Simon >> > >> > Benjamin L. Russell wrote: >> > > Greetings, >> > > >> > > John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail >> > message requesting you to perform set-up of a new >> > Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to >> > moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the >> > administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org. >> > > >> > > My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >> interested in >> > starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan >> to call >> > Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research >> > beginner-level educational matters, guided by the >> > philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to >> > non-computer science major students. >> > > >> > > This topic is not covered by any of the other >> mailing >> > lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and >> Haskell-Cafe >> > for the past six months or so, but the former is >> devoted to >> > announcements, and the latter de facto to research >> matters. >> > Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly >> academic >> > and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an >> > unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science >> majors >> > interested in learning Haskell. >> > > >> > > Since John Peterson recommended that I request >> you to >> > set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you >> please >> > set it whenever you have free time, as follows: >> > > >> > > Name of Mailing List: Haskell-Edu >> > > E-mail Address: haskell-edu@haskell.org >> > > Description: The Haskell-Edu Mailing >> List: >> > Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in >> > Education >> > > >> > > Could you please advise me on what I need to do >> to >> > start this mailing list? Should I host it on >> haskell.org, >> > or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org >> mailing >> > list service? Also, how should I have it listed in >> the >> > "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >> > (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the >> > benefit of other members of the Haskell community? >> > > >> > > Thank you very much for your time and >> cooperation. >> > > >> > > Sincerely yours, >> > > >> > > Benjamin L. Russell >> > > >> > > --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson >> > wrote: >> > > >> > >> From: John Peterson >> >> > >> Subject: RE: on starting a new >> Haskell-related >> > mailing list >> > >> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >> > >> > >> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM >> > >> Hi Benjamin, >> > >> >> > >> There's no problem starting a new mailing >> > list. Simon >> > >> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if >> you >> > drop him >> > >> and email he'll do the setup for >> Haskell.org. >> > Once the >> > >> list is going, you can go into the wiki and >> add it >> > to the >> > >> appropriate pages. >> > >> >> > >> We've had a bunch of these special >> interest >> > lists and >> > >> most of them go dead after a few months but >> you >> > never know >> > >> ... >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> John >> > > >> > > --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell >> > wrote: >> > > >> > >> From: Benjamin L. Russell >> > >> > >> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related >> mailing >> > list >> > >> To: "John Peterson" >> > >> > >> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM >> > >> Greetings, >> > >> >> > >> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >> > interested in >> > >> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which >> I >> > plan to >> > >> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to >> > non-research >> > >> beginner-level educational matters, guided by >> the >> > >> philosophy that Haskell should be more >> accessible >> > to >> > >> non-computer science major students. (This >> > message is >> > >> being addressed to you because I had already >> sent >> > the >> > >> portion below twice to other administrators >> at >> > Haskell.org, >> > >> first to mailman-owner@haskell.org, and then >> to >> > >> simonmarhaskell@gmail.com, but had not >> received a >> > response >> > >> on either occasion.) >> > >> >> > >> This topic is not covered by any of the other >> > mailing >> > >> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell >> and >> > Haskell-Cafe >> > >> for the past six months or so, but the former >> is >> > devoted to >> > >> announcements, and the latter de facto to >> research >> > matters. >> > >> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is >> overly >> > academic >> > >> and research-oriented, and I feel that this >> > creates an >> > >> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer >> > science majors >> > >> interested in learning Haskell. >> > >> >> > >> Could you please advise me on what I need to >> do to >> > start >> > >> this mailing list? Should I host it on >> > haskell.org, or >> > >> just start it by myself using a >> non-Haskell.org >> > mailing >> > >> list service? Also, how should I have it >> listed >> > in the >> > >> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >> > >> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) >> page for >> > the >> > >> benefit of other members of the Haskell >> community? >> > >> >> > >> Thank you very much for your time and >> cooperation. >> > >> >> > >> Sincerely yours, >> > >> >> > >> Benjamin L. Russell >> _______________________________________________ >> Haskell mailing list >> Haskell@haskell.org >> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell > _______________________________________________ > Haskell mailing list > Haskell@haskell.org > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell > From paul.hudak at yale.edu Wed Jul 2 09:57:40 2008 From: paul.hudak at yale.edu (Paul Hudak) Date: Wed Jul 2 09:48:50 2008 Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <576650.92747.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <576650.92747.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <486B8954.1060701@yale.edu> Hi Benjamin. I think this is a great idea, for all the reasons you mention. Starting this fall I will be teaching a two-term computer music course based on Haskore and HasSound (Haskell libraries for computer music), and I would love to have an on-line forum that I could recommend to my students, some of whom will not be hard-core computer science majors. Thanks for initiating this. -Paul Hudak Benjamin L. Russell wrote: > So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no negative responses. > > In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list advising readers on how to react. Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow, had originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in this thread or, after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have mixed feelings regarding this idea. > > In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive. Participation by educators using Haskell, once Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome. > > Please post your responses initially in this thread. After a few rounds, this discussion will probably move to Haskell-Cafe. > > -- Benjamin L. Russell > > --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell wrote: > > >> From: Benjamin L. Russell >> Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list >> To: "The Haskell Mailing List" >> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM >> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on >> Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and >> elementary-level learners of Haskell, called >> "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing >> List." This new mailing list would be guided by the >> principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but >> also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts >> education, on a par with Scheme. When I suggested the idea >> of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org >> mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this >> idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here >> to ask for feedback. >> >> The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would >> be as follows: >> >> 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion >> forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the >> uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in >> introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to >> in research. >> >> 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion >> forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students >> of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for >> learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal >> arts education, as opposed to an >> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. >> >> Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists: >> >> a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for >> announcements and for non-beginner discussions >> >> b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for >> everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious >> academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of >> the language Haskell. >> >> Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for >> teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts >> education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly >> responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have >> witnessed several instances in which new users who were not >> familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have >> been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not >> assume enough mathematical background, or for posting >> messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and >> that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the >> mailing list. >> >> (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a >> private e-mail message from another poster asking the >> former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing >> List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow >> related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points >> randomly from a square in approximating pi. Avoiding this >> question required the knowledge that screen resolution >> could be considered independently from the precision of the >> algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to >> mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar >> enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and >> received the above-mentioned response.) >> >> This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue >> of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum, >> and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from >> students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics >> background. The primary audience of this new mailing list >> would be educators and students in a liberal arts >> curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for >> studying functional programming. Currently, the language >> Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is >> not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has >> recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming >> language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell >> may either not have a computer science background, or may >> not have a sophisticated mathematical background. Posts >> from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers, >> who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find >> valuable information to aid their research, but may be >> welcome >> in a more education-focused context. >> >> It would seem that creating a new mailing list, >> Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching >> programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding >> questions from students in that context, would help >> increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread >> knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in >> industry. Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could >> discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and >> students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background >> would be able to ask elementary questions to educators >> willing to discuss such questions, without being expected >> to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science >> background. >> >> -- Benjamin L. Russell >> >> --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow >> wrote: >> >> >>> From: Simon Marlow >>> Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing >>> >> list >> >>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >>> >> >> >>> Cc: "John Peterson" >>> >> >> >>> Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM >>> Hi Benjamin, >>> >>> Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list >>> >> has >> >>> a narrow >>> focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche. In this >>> >> case >> >>> you're >>> proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it >>> needs discussion >>> amongst the community before we create the list, so >>> >> that we >> >>> can keep a >>> consistent strategy. >>> >>> That's not to say that I disagree with your >>> >> proposal. >> >>> But it doesn't >>> seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and >>> >> why >> >>> haskell-cafe >>> shouldn't serve the purpose. One thing that >>> >> isn't >> >>> clear is whether the >>> list you're proposing is for people interested in >>> *teaching* Haskell (in >>> which case I'd say it's a great idea), or >>> >> people >> >>> *learning* Haskell (in >>> which case I'd consider carefully whether >>> >> haskell-cafe >> >>> shoudn't be >>> serving that need). That's something you need to >>> clarify when proposing >>> this list to the community. >>> >>> So I suggest you send this proposal out to >>> haskell@haskell.org in the >>> first instance, and see what response you get. >>> >> Discussion >> >>> should move >>> to haskell-cafe quickly. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Simon >>> >>> Benjamin L. Russell wrote: >>> >>>> Greetings, >>>> >>>> John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail >>>> >>> message requesting you to perform set-up of a new >>> Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to >>> moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the >>> administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org. >>> >>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >>>> >> interested in >> >>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan >>> >> to call >> >>> Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research >>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by the >>> philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to >>> non-computer science major students. >>> >>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other >>>> >> mailing >> >>> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and >>> >> Haskell-Cafe >> >>> for the past six months or so, but the former is >>> >> devoted to >> >>> announcements, and the latter de facto to research >>> >> matters. >> >>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly >>> >> academic >> >>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an >>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science >>> >> majors >> >>> interested in learning Haskell. >>> >>>> Since John Peterson recommended that I request >>>> >> you to >> >>> set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you >>> >> please >> >>> set it whenever you have free time, as follows: >>> >>>> Name of Mailing List: Haskell-Edu >>>> E-mail Address: haskell-edu@haskell.org >>>> Description: The Haskell-Edu Mailing >>>> >> List: >> >>> Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in >>> Education >>> >>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to do >>>> >> to >> >>> start this mailing list? Should I host it on >>> >> haskell.org, >> >>> or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org >>> >> mailing >> >>> list service? Also, how should I have it listed in >>> >> the >> >>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the >>> benefit of other members of the Haskell community? >>> >>>> Thank you very much for your time and >>>> >> cooperation. >> >>>> Sincerely yours, >>>> >>>> Benjamin L. Russell >>>> >>>> --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson >>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>>> From: John Peterson >>>>> >> >> >>>>> Subject: RE: on starting a new >>>>> >> Haskell-related >> >>> mailing list >>> >>>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM >>>>> Hi Benjamin, >>>>> >>>>> There's no problem starting a new mailing >>>>> >>> list. Simon >>> >>>>> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if >>>>> >> you >> >>> drop him >>> >>>>> and email he'll do the setup for >>>>> >> Haskell.org. >> >>> Once the >>> >>>>> list is going, you can go into the wiki and >>>>> >> add it >> >>> to the >>> >>>>> appropriate pages. >>>>> >>>>> We've had a bunch of these special >>>>> >> interest >> >>> lists and >>> >>>>> most of them go dead after a few months but >>>>> >> you >> >>> never know >>> >>>>> ... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> John >>>>> >>>> --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell >>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>>> From: Benjamin L. Russell >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related >>>>> >> mailing >> >>> list >>> >>>>> To: "John Peterson" >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM >>>>> Greetings, >>>>> >>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >>>>> >>> interested in >>> >>>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which >>>>> >> I >> >>> plan to >>> >>>>> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to >>>>> >>> non-research >>> >>>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by >>>>> >> the >> >>>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more >>>>> >> accessible >> >>> to >>> >>>>> non-computer science major students. (This >>>>> >>> message is >>> >>>>> being addressed to you because I had already >>>>> >> sent >> >>> the >>> >>>>> portion below twice to other administrators >>>>> >> at >> >>> Haskell.org, >>> >>>>> first to mailman-owner@haskell.org, and then >>>>> >> to >> >>>>> simonmarhaskell@gmail.com, but had not >>>>> >> received a >> >>> response >>> >>>>> on either occasion.) >>>>> >>>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other >>>>> >>> mailing >>> >>>>> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell >>>>> >> and >> >>> Haskell-Cafe >>> >>>>> for the past six months or so, but the former >>>>> >> is >> >>> devoted to >>> >>>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to >>>>> >> research >> >>> matters. >>> >>>>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is >>>>> >> overly >> >>> academic >>> >>>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this >>>>> >>> creates an >>> >>>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer >>>>> >>> science majors >>> >>>>> interested in learning Haskell. >>>>> >>>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to >>>>> >> do to >> >>> start >>> >>>>> this mailing list? Should I host it on >>>>> >>> haskell.org, or >>> >>>>> just start it by myself using a >>>>> >> non-Haskell.org >> >>> mailing >>> >>>>> list service? Also, how should I have it >>>>> >> listed >> >>> in the >>> >>>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >>>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) >>>>> >> page for >> >>> the >>> >>>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell >>>>> >> community? >> >>>>> Thank you very much for your time and >>>>> >> cooperation. >> >>>>> Sincerely yours, >>>>> >>>>> Benjamin L. Russell >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Haskell mailing list >> Haskell@haskell.org >> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell >> > _______________________________________________ > Haskell mailing list > Haskell@haskell.org > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell/attachments/20080702/10af09c8/attachment-0001.htm From byorgey at seas.upenn.edu Wed Jul 2 15:42:31 2008 From: byorgey at seas.upenn.edu (Brent Yorgey) Date: Wed Jul 2 15:33:37 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 75 - July 2, 2008 Message-ID: <20080702194231.GA9221@minus.seas.upenn.edu> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Haskell Weekly News http://sequence.complete.org/hwn/20080702 Issue 75 - July 02, 2008 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome to issue 75 of HWN, a newsletter covering developments in the [1]Haskell community. Announcements Anglo Haskell 2008. Matthew Sackman [2]announced [3]AngloHaskell 2008, a gathering of all people Haskell-related from beginners, to seasoned hackers to academic giants. All and more are welcomed by large fuzzy green lambdas. The proposed dates and location are Friday the 8th and Saturday the 9th of August, at Imperial College, London. CFP - Special Issue of Fundamenta Informaticae on Dependently Typed Programming. Wouter Swierstra [4]announced a call for papers for a special issue of [5]Fundamenta Informaticae on [6]Dependently Typed Programming. The deadline for submissions is October 1. Gtk2Hs 0.9.13. Peter Gavin [7]announced the release of Gtk2Hs 0.9.13, including bindings for Gnome VFS and GStreamer, a new Gtk+ tutorial adapted by Hans van Thiel, cairo image stride support, and more. Hasim. Jochem Berndsen [8]announced Hasim, a [9]small project to create a library to do discrete event simulation in Haskell, using monads to define a domain-specific language for "actions" of a process. Galois move. Don Stewart [10]announced that Galois has completed the move of its data center. Expect speedier response times for hackage.haskell.org and darcs.haskell.org. Google Summer of Code Progress updates from participants in the 2008 [11]Google Summer of Code. Hoogle 4. Neil Mitchell (ndm) is working on [12]Hoogle 4. [13]This week, Neil worked on better Haddock database generation, lazy name searching, and a snazzy --info flag for Hoogle. Next up: type search! DPH physics engine. Roman Cheplyaka (Feuerbach) is working on a [14]physics engine using [15]Data Parallel Haskell. [16]This week, he worked on implementing Mirtich's V-Clip algorithm for collision detection (and [17]got it to work), cabalized his project and added documentation. He also ran into an interesting QuickCheck puzzle. Generic tries. Jamie Brandon is working on a library for efficient maps using generalized tries. [18]This week, he created a generic framework for automatically running QuickCheck tests at a number of different types. This week he plans to synthesize the many suggestions from the [19]discussion on the libraries list into a stable API design. Language.C. Benedikt Huber (visq) is [20]working on Language.C, a standalone parser/pretty printer library for C99. [21]This week he worked on a better representation for declarators, and abstracted the notion of an InputStream over both String and ByteString, among other accomplishments. GHC plugins. Max Bolingbroke is working on dynamically loaded plugins for GHC. Cabal dependency framework. Andrea Vezzosi (Saizan) is working on a [22]make-like dependency analysis framework for Cabal. GHC API. Thomas Schilling (nominolo) is working on [23]improvements to the GHC API. Officials at HWN headquarters have released a statement reversing their previous position regarding the existence of Thomas, citing regrettably faulty information to explain their previous misapprehensions. Expect to hear more from Thomas soon, now that he has finished graduating and moving. Libraries Proposals and extensions to the [24]standard libraries. GetOpt formatting improvements. Duncan Coutts [25]proposed some modifications to make the output of the System.Console.GetOpt library more readable, resulting in quite a bit of discussion. HughesPJ improvements. Benedikt Huber [26]proposed a patch with some bug fixes, performance improvements, and QuickCheck test suite for the Text.PrettyPrint.HughesPJ pretty-printing library. Discussion A Monad for on-demand file generation?. Joachim Breitner [27]asked about a monad for transparently tracking files which may need to be regenerated due to dependencies, leading to an interesting discussion of incremental computation, strict vs. lazy I/O, and other issues. New mailing list proposal: Haskell-Edu. Benjamin L. Russell sent out a message [28]proposing a new mailing list hosted at haskell.org, "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing List." The new mailing list would be guided by the principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts education. Comments and discussion welcomed. Learning GADT types to simulate dependent types. Paul Johnson is trying to use GADTs to simulate aspects of a dependently typed system, and [29]asks for help improving his Oleg rating. Call graph tool?. C.M.Brown [30]asked whether there is a tool for visualizing the call graph for a collection of source files, leading to a discussion of various tools. Jobs Formal methods and automated reasoning at Rockwell Collins. Janis Voigtlaender [31]passed on an opening for a Senior Systems Engineer at [32]Rockwell Collins. The opening is for a computer scientist or engineer to develop and apply automated analysis to computer systems and to pursue research in formal methods and automated reasoning. Contact: rmgatto at rockwellcollins.com. Blog noise [33]Haskell news from the [34]blogosphere. * Roman Cheplyaka: [35]V-Clip seems to work!. * Benedikt Huber: [36]Last week on Language.C (1). An update on Benedikt's Google Summer of Code project. * Jamie Brandon: [37]Week 3 progress. An update on Jamie's Google Summer of Code project. * Philip Wadler: [38]Welcome to Scotland, Neil, Patricia, and Conor!. * >>> codders: [39]Coding style, Haskell. codders likes how Real World Haskell gives some hints about Haskell coding style and culture in addition to teaching the language itself. * >>> zoo: [40]Haskell plug-in for Eclipse. zoo explains how to install the [41]Haskell Eclipse plugin. * Dan Piponi (sigfpe): [42]A blessed man's formula for holey containers. Dan descries an enlightening derivation of the [43]combinatorial form of Faa di Bruno's formula from the perspective of derivatives of types. * Roman Cheplyaka: [44]Status report: week 5. An update on Roman's Google Summer of Code project. * >>> codders: [45]More Haskell fun. * >>> Marco Tulio Gontijo e Silva: [46]Rank 2 Types. Marco describes a practical use for GHC's rank-2 types. * Edward Kmett: [47]Memoizing Context. * >>> JP Moresmau: [48]Deserializing JSON to Haskell Data objects. * >>> codders: [49]Getting started with Haskell... still. codders is learning Haskell by reading the beta version of [50]Real World Haskell. * Neil Mitchell: [51]GSoC Hoogle: Week 5. * Arnar: [52]Parsing JSON with Haskell. A nice example of using [53]Parsec to parse JSON. * Thomas Hartman: [54]HAppS Tutorial. Quotes of the Week * quicksilver: [on what OS sjanssen uses] sjanssen runs haskell programs in his head; much more efficient. * EvilTerran: "We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the phantom types began to take hold." * audreyt: o/~ the phantom of the typesystem is here / inside my mind! o/~ * dmwit: No, no, no, ($) isn't right-assoc, it's wrong-assoc. * solrize: this would never happen in haskell: i sent in a search query to a certain python program, but left the query field empty, expecting to get back an error message. instead it found a bunch of books written by the diet doctor Gary Null. * heatsink: We're all inside do-blocks in the IO monad if you think about it. * djsiegel: [upon having a question answered by dons] oh my, I'm talking to the man * mar77a: the first computers were big because they were actually cupboards with fast humans inside About the Haskell Weekly News New editions are posted to [55]the Haskell mailing list as well as to [56]the Haskell Sequence and [57]Planet Haskell. [58]RSS is also available, and headlines appear on [59]haskell.org. Headlines are available as [60]PDF. To help create new editions of this newsletter, please see the information on [61]how to contribute. Send stories to byorgey at seas dot upenn dot edu. The darcs repository is available at darcs get [62]http://code.haskell.org/~byorgey/code/hwn/ . References 1. http://haskell.org/ 2. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.general/16272 3. http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/AngloHaskell/2008 4. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.general/16269 5. http://fi.mimuw.edu.pl/ 6. http://sneezy.cs.nott.ac.uk/darcs/DTP08/journal.html 7. http://www.haskell.org//pipermail/haskell-cafe/2008-June/044805.html 8. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/41881 9. http://huygens.functor.nl/hasim 10. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/41847 11. http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/summer-of-code/wiki/SoC2008 12. http://code.haskell.org/hoogle/ 13. http://neilmitchell.blogspot.com/2008/06/gsoc-hoogle-week-5.html 14. http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Hpysics 15. http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/GHC/Data_Parallel_Haskell 16. http://physics-dph.blogspot.com/2008/06/status-report-week-5.html 17. http://physics-dph.blogspot.com/2008/07/v-clip-seems-to-work.html 18. http://jamiiecb.blogspot.com/2008/06/week-3-progress.html 19. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.libraries/9259 20. http://www.sivity.net/projects/language.c/wiki/ 21. http://hsbene.blogspot.com/2008/07/last-week-on-languagec-1.html 22. http://code.haskell.org/~Saizan/cabal 23. http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/GhcApiStatus 24. http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Library_submissions 25. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.libraries/9415 26. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.libraries/9377 27. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/41868 28. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.general/16271 29. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/41848 30. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/41786 31. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.general/16266 32. http://www.rockwellcollins.com/ 33. http://planet.haskell.org/ 34. http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Blog_articles 35. http://physics-dph.blogspot.com/2008/07/v-clip-seems-to-work.html 36. http://hsbene.blogspot.com/2008/07/last-week-on-languagec-1.html 37. http://jamiiecb.blogspot.com/2008/06/week-3-progress.html 38. http://wadler.blogspot.com/2008/06/welcome-to-scotland-neil-patricia-and.html 39. http://talkingcode.co.uk/2008/06/30/coding-style-haskell/ 40. http://imonad.com/blog/2008/06/haskell-plug-in-for-eclipse/ 41. http://sourceforge.net/projects/eclipsefp/ 42. http://sigfpe.blogspot.com/2008/06/blessed-mans-formula-for-holey.html 43. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa%C3%A0_di_Bruno's_formula#Combinatorial_form 44. http://physics-dph.blogspot.com/2008/06/status-report-week-5.html 45. http://talkingcode.co.uk/2008/06/28/more-haskell-fun/ 46. http://marcotmarcot.blogspot.com/2008/06/rank-2-types.html 47. http://comonad.com/reader/2008/memoizing-context/ 48. http://jpmoresmau.blogspot.com/2008/06/deserializing-json-to-haskell-data.html 49. http://talkingcode.co.uk/2008/06/27/getting-started-with-haskell-still/ 50. http://www.realworldhaskell.org/ 51. http://neilmitchell.blogspot.com/2008/06/gsoc-hoogle-week-5.html 52. http://www.hvergi.net/2008/06/parsing-json-with-haskell/ 53. http://legacy.cs.uu.nl/daan/parsec.html 54. http://ramblings.tumblr.com/post/39794244/happs-tutorial 55. http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell 56. http://sequence.complete.org/ 57. http://planet.haskell.org/ 58. http://sequence.complete.org/node/feed 59. http://haskell.org/ 60. http://code.haskell.org/~byorgey/code/hwn/archives/20080702.pdf 61. http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/HWN 62. http://code.haskell.org/~byorgey/code/hwn/ From chak at cse.unsw.edu.au Thu Jul 3 22:29:48 2008 From: chak at cse.unsw.edu.au (Manuel M T Chakravarty) Date: Thu Jul 3 22:20:53 2008 Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> Benjamin L. Russell: > I am interested in starting a new mailing list on Haskell.org, aimed > mainly at liberal arts teachers and elementary-level learners of > Haskell, called "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing > List." This new mailing list would be guided by the principle that > Haskell is useful not just in research, but also in teaching > programming as part of a liberal arts education, on a par with > Scheme. When I suggested the idea of this mailing list to Simon > Marlow, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, he suggested > that I post this idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting > it here to ask for feedback. > > The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would be as > follows: > > 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to > serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the uses of Haskell in > education, such as in high school and in introductory computer > science college courses, as opposed to in research. > > 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to > serve the needs of non-computer-science students of Haskell who wish > to focus on Haskell as a language for learning programming as part > of a well-rounded a liberal arts education, as opposed to an > engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. The Haskell community seems to be growing quickly and clearly becomes more diverse. So, a mailing list aimed at users with less experience and/or a non-computing, non-math background makes sense to me. Whether you will be able to gather a critical mass of knowledgeable people who are happy to answer questions on the list is hard to answer without trying your idea. But mailing lists are cheap. So, I'd say, let's give it a try and see whether it works. In any case, it'd be important to describe the purpose of the list at http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Mailing_lists properly to make clear which discussions should go to which list. Manuel From marlowsd at gmail.com Fri Jul 4 05:40:17 2008 From: marlowsd at gmail.com (Simon Marlow) Date: Fri Jul 4 05:31:23 2008 Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> Message-ID: <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> Manuel M T Chakravarty wrote: > Benjamin L. Russell: >> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on Haskell.org, aimed >> mainly at liberal arts teachers and elementary-level learners of >> Haskell, called "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing List." >> This new mailing list would be guided by the principle that Haskell is >> useful not just in research, but also in teaching programming as part >> of a liberal arts education, on a par with Scheme. When I suggested >> the idea of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org mailing >> list administrator, he suggested that I post this idea on The Haskell >> Mailing List, so I am posting it here to ask for feedback. >> >> The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would be as >> follows: >> >> 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to >> serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the uses of Haskell in >> education, such as in high school and in introductory computer science >> college courses, as opposed to in research. >> >> 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to >> serve the needs of non-computer-science students of Haskell who wish >> to focus on Haskell as a language for learning programming as part of >> a well-rounded a liberal arts education, as opposed to an >> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. > > The Haskell community seems to be growing quickly and clearly becomes > more diverse. So, a mailing list aimed at users with less experience > and/or a non-computing, non-math background makes sense to me. > > Whether you will be able to gather a critical mass of knowledgeable > people who are happy to answer questions on the list is hard to answer > without trying your idea. But mailing lists are cheap. So, I'd say, > let's give it a try and see whether it works. In any case, it'd be > important to describe the purpose of the list at > > http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Mailing_lists > > properly to make clear which discussions should go to which list. My main concern here is that the remit for the new list is not clear enough. I can see a potential need for two lists: * a list for discussion related to teaching Haskell; * a list devoted to those learning Haskell, with a less research- oriented feel than haskell-cafe. it's not obvious to me that both of those needs should be served by a single list. I believe it's important that the mailing lists served by haskell.org should have clear non-overlapping topics. So I suggest that we add haskell-edu for the purposes of discussing the use and teaching of Haskell in education. For the second point above, I'd be inclined not to add a new list, but I don't feel that strongly - if there's a concensus in favour of adding haskell-beginners (for example), that would be fine. Cheers, Simon From ketil at malde.org Fri Jul 4 06:51:09 2008 From: ketil at malde.org (Ketil Malde) Date: Fri Jul 4 06:41:51 2008 Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> (Simon Marlow's message of "Fri\, 04 Jul 2008 10\:40\:17 +0100") References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <871w29vs6a.fsf@malde.org> Simon Marlow writes: > My main concern here is that the remit for the new list is not clear > enough. I can see a potential need for two lists: > > * a list for discussion related to teaching Haskell; > > * a list devoted to those learning Haskell, with a less research- > oriented feel than haskell-cafe. > it's not obvious to me that both of those needs should be served by a > single list. I believe it's important that the mailing lists served > by haskell.org should have clear non-overlapping topics. Another concern might be that there currently isn't a lot of discussion about the first topic on the existing mailing lists. IMHO, this may make it unlikely that the list will gather critical mass to keep rolling. There's a ton of more specific lists at http://gmane.org/find.php?list=haskell , yet almost none have any volume to speak of, the exception is highly specialized lists where people in the know (ghc developers, summer of code particpants) subscribe. As for beginners, there are occasional beginner questions on haskell-cafe, but not in such volume that it is detrimental to the existing lists. I'm not so worried about old-timers not subscribing to it (you all seem pretty service minded), but I worry that we'll just keep polluting existing lists with messages telling people to repost their question to haskell-beginners instead. IMHO, we might as well just use the existing lists for both of these. If the perceived problem is the high-brow stuff scaring newbies off, it's better to add a new list for that topic. -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants From gmh at Cs.Nott.AC.UK Sat Jul 5 04:37:44 2008 From: gmh at Cs.Nott.AC.UK (Graham Hutton) Date: Sat Jul 5 04:29:51 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Lectureship in Functional Programming, Nottingham Message-ID: <19118.1215247064@cs.nott.ac.uk> Dear all, We are currently seeking a new Lecturer (Assistant Professor) in the Functional Programming Lab in Nottingham, a recently formed research group that comprises Thorsten Altenkirch, Graham Hutton, Henrik Nilsson, four research fellows, and eleven PhD students. Applications from the Haskell community are encouraged! The closing date for applications is Friday 15th August 2008. Best wishes, Graham +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ UNIVERSITY OF NOTTINGHAM School of Computer Science Lectureship in Functional Programming Applications are invited for the above post in the School of Computer Science. The successful candidate will be expected to participate in the School's teaching activities and contribute to research in the recently formed Functional Programming Laboratory. Candidates must hold a PhD or equivalent in a relevant subject, have an excellent publication record and the ability to teach at undergraduate and postgraduate level. It is desirable that candidates have a track record of external research funding, collaboration across disciplines, experience of different types of assessment and higher education quality assurance. They should also have the ability to play a role in the routine running of the School of Computer Science. The Functional Programming Laboratory covers a broad range of topics in the theory, practice, and implementation of functional programming languages. Current interests include type theory, language design, program semantics, program verification, modelling and simulation, category theory, programming tools, and quantum programming. Applications are welcome from any area that complements existing research strengths in the laboratory. Informal enquiries may be addressed to Dr T Altenkirch, tel: 0115 846 6516, Email: Thorsten.Altenkirch@Nottingham.ac.uk or Dr G Hutton, tel: 0115 951 4220, Email: Graham.M.Hutton@Nottingham.ac.uk. School of Computer Science : http://nottingham.ac.uk/cs Functional programming lab : http://sneezy.cs.nott.ac.uk/joomla/ How to apply : http://jobs.nottingham.ac.uk/CJ24461S Closing date : 15th August 2008 +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Dr Graham Hutton Email : gmh@cs.nott.ac.uk | | Functional Programming Lab | | School of Computer Science Web : www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~gmh | | University of Nottingham | | Jubilee Campus, Wollaton Road Phone : +44 (0)115 951 4220 | | Nottingham NG8 1BB, UK | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an attachment may still contain software viruses, which could damage your computer system: you are advised to perform your own checks. Email communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as permitted by UK legislation. From isaacdupree at charter.net Sat Jul 5 20:26:43 2008 From: isaacdupree at charter.net (Isaac Dupree) Date: Sat Jul 5 20:17:38 2008 Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <871w29vs6a.fsf@malde.org> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <871w29vs6a.fsf@malde.org> Message-ID: <48701143.6080004@charter.net> Ketil Malde wrote: > IMHO, we might as well just use the existing lists for both of these. > If the perceived problem is the high-brow stuff scaring newbies off, > it's better to add a new list for that topic. rather difficult, because beginner questions can easily spiral into curiosity about quite theoretical stuff, with no clear point of separation. And I'm not sure we want to avoid having that kind of curiosity, but I suppose it might always intimidate some newbies: a predicament I'm not sure we can solve by a mere technical measure of splitting up lists. when I was a newbie I was intimidated by the sheer volume of Haskell-Cafe, never mind whether I could understand it or not :-) but also the relatively few amount of beginner questions with beginner answers when looking in the list archives, probably made me less sure whether my questions would belong there. -Isaac From flippa at flippac.org Sat Jul 5 20:33:19 2008 From: flippa at flippac.org (Philippa Cowderoy) Date: Sat Jul 5 20:23:37 2008 Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <48701143.6080004@charter.net> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <871w29vs6a.fsf@malde.org> <48701143.6080004@charter.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Jul 2008, Isaac Dupree wrote: > rather difficult, because beginner questions can easily spiral into curiosity > about quite theoretical stuff, with no clear point of separation. And I'm not > sure we want to avoid having that kind of curiosity, but I suppose it might > always intimidate some newbies: a predicament I'm not sure we can solve by a > mere technical measure of splitting up lists. > On a newbie list, it's easier to remember to give more of a beginner's guide to tough topics - or to point out when 'teachers' should take it to -cafe. > when I was a newbie I was intimidated by the sheer volume of Haskell-Cafe, > never mind whether I could understand it or not :-) but also the relatively > few amount of beginner questions with beginner answers when looking in the > list archives, probably made me less sure whether my questions would belong > there. > That's another good reason for such a list. I suspect a good many "why are things like this?" questions would be better handled somewhere like that, too. -- flippa@flippac.org Sometimes you gotta fight fire with fire. Most of the time you just get burnt worse though. From jwlato at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 21:23:32 2008 From: jwlato at gmail.com (John Lato) Date: Sat Jul 5 21:14:28 2008 Subject: [Haskell] ANNOUNCE: hCsound library Message-ID: <9979e72e0807051823p6d7c18cfi73dc4d0978da2e49@mail.gmail.com> I have just released hCsound v.2.0.0 (initial public release), a Haskell binding to the Csound audio processing language API. This release supports most of the functions in csound.h. Features from CppSound.cpp are not yet supported. Examples and (minimal) haddock documentation are included. I would appreciate hearing comments and suggestions from users. This package should build fairly easily on Linux and OS X; building on Windows is possible but may require tinkering. Windows users should contact me if they have any problems or questions. The source tarball is available on hackage at http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/hCsound The darcs repo is at http://mml.music.utexas.edu/jwlato/hCsound/ I would like to thank the C2HS developers and maintainers for their excellent tool and advice. John Lato From wss at Cs.Nott.AC.UK Mon Jul 7 09:45:52 2008 From: wss at Cs.Nott.AC.UK (Wouter Swierstra) Date: Mon Jul 7 09:36:44 2008 Subject: [Haskell] The Monad.Reader (11) - Call for Copy Message-ID: <2CD1250E-0CC4-4CA4-93D3-EA81CBABE61B@Cs.Nott.AC.UK> Call for Copy The Monad.Reader - Issue 11 The summer's bound to be a washout; the submission deadline for the Haskell Symposium has passed; Wimbledon's finished. But it's not too late to start writing something for the next issue of The Monad.Reader! The deadline for Issue 11 is ** August 1, 2008 ** The Monad.Reader is a electronic magazine about all things Haskell. It is less formal than journal, but more enduring than a wiki-page or blog. There have been a wide variety of articles, ranging from code fragments, puzzles, book reviews, tutorials, to half-baked research ideas. * Submission Details * Get in touch with me if you intend to submit something -- the sooner you let me know what you're up to, the better. Please submit articles for the next issue to me by e-mail (wss at cs.nott.ac.uk). Articles should be written according to the guidelines available from http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/The_Monad.Reader Please submit your article in PDF, together with any source files you used. The sources will be released together with the magazine under a BSD license. If you would like to submit an article, but have trouble with LaTeX please let me know and we'll sort something out. All the best, Wouter From matthew at wellquite.org Mon Jul 7 11:38:28 2008 From: matthew at wellquite.org (Matthew Sackman) Date: Mon Jul 7 11:29:25 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: Anglo Haskell 2008 In-Reply-To: <20080701121531.GB1808@arkansas.doc.ic.ac.uk> References: <20080701121531.GB1808@arkansas.doc.ic.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20080707153827.GA6240@wellquite.org> On Tue, Jul 01, 2008 at 01:15:31PM +0100, Matthew Sackman wrote: > Anglo Haskell is a gathering of all people Haskell-related from > beginners, to seasoned hackers to academic giants. All and more are > welcomed by large fuzzy green lambdas. > > In contrast to the last two years which have been held at MSR Cambridge > (UK), we're this year proposing to hold the event at Imperial College, > London. London is probably easier to get to and from (though more > tedious to get across) than Cambridge and we hope this will attract > people who previously have not been able to get out to Cambridge. > > The proposed dates are Friday the 8th and Saturday the 9th of August. > > More details are available on the wikipage: > http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/AngloHaskell/2008 > Please feel free to add to this page. There have been no objections to holding Anglo Haskell at Imperial this year and no objections about dates either. Thus we're now able to confirm this will happen at Imperial on the 8th and 9th of August as advertised. Some people have signed up on the wiki page, please add your name if you are able to come or are considering coming along. Also please make use of the wiki page and #anglohaskell irc channel to arrange where to stay overnight if necessary. Finally, once again, if you'd like to give a talk then please add your name to the list on the wiki page. We really do need both attendees and speakers to make this event a success. Matthew -- Matthew Sackman http://www.wellquite.org/ From ndmitchell at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 07:31:14 2008 From: ndmitchell at gmail.com (Neil Mitchell) Date: Tue Jul 8 07:22:02 2008 Subject: [Haskell] ANN: Uniplate 1.2 Message-ID: <404396ef0807080431i7a7f80aap1fdcb368cd55daaa@mail.gmail.com> I am pleased to announce Uniplate 1.2, available from Hackage: http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/uniplate Description =========== Uniplate is a library for reducing boilerplate code, by performing generic traversals. For example, given a data type with a Uniplate instance: data Expr = Var String | Add String String | Mul String String | ... instance Uniplate Expr where ... We can write a function to get all the variables in an Expr as: vars x = [v | Var v <- universe x] Additionally, Uniplate can work with the built-in deriving Data/Typeable support in GHC to eliminate the need for writing Uniplate instances. The library is described in Chapter 3 of my thesis (http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~ndm/thesis/), complete with simple examples for most functions. Most Haskell users working with a moderately complex data type, such as an abstract syntax tree, should be using some form of boilerplate removal. Uniplate is used in projects such as Yhc, Hoogle, Reach, Reduceron, Catch, Supero and many others. What's New ========== * Fixed the descendBi function, previously could give the wrong results. * Add holes, the 1-step version of contexts * The underlying data type of the library has been changed from a list to a tree, as suggested by Koen Claessen. This change, plus some other performance tweaks, gives a 25-50% speed up over Uniplate 1.0. * A compatibility layer with Compos and SYB has been added. By importing Data.Generics.Uniplate.Compos/SYB an interface approximating the other library will be provided, which can be used to help porting programs to Uniplate. The implementations are not exact duplicates of the library, but in many examples should be sufficient. There are some slight API changes, but should be minimal. If your program hits one of these changes, please email me and I will fix it for you. Thanks Neil From paul.hudak at yale.edu Tue Jul 8 15:38:34 2008 From: paul.hudak at yale.edu (Paul Hudak) Date: Tue Jul 8 15:29:26 2008 Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> Simon Marlow wrote: > My main concern here is that the remit for the new list is not clear > enough. I can see a potential need for two lists: > > * a list for discussion related to teaching Haskell; > > * a list devoted to those learning Haskell, with a less research- > oriented feel than haskell-cafe. > > it's not obvious to me that both of those needs should be served by a > single list. I believe it's important that the mailing lists served > by haskell.org should have clear non-overlapping topics. > > So I suggest that we add haskell-edu for the purposes of discussing > the use and teaching of Haskell in education. For the second point > above, I'd be inclined not to add a new list, but I don't feel that > strongly - if there's a concensus in favour of adding > haskell-beginners (for example), that would be fine. > > Cheers, > Simon Using Simon's names, I think that there is a greater need for haskell-beginners than for haskell-edu. Despite the friendly people on haskell-cafe, it is very intimidating, and very busy (sadly, I've mostly stopped reading it for the latter reason). I don't think that haskell-cafe serves well at all as a forum for beginners, whereas it might serve just fine as a forum for instructors. In any case, these are two distinct purposes, and I agree with Simon that it's probably unwise to have a single mailing list for both. I would vote for starting a haskell-beginners list and see how it goes. I think that a decent number of experienced people will chip in to answer questions (they don't have to be experts -- just good at explaining things), and in my experience beginners like to help fellow beginners -- i.e. it will sustain itself. I would also be interested in a haskell-edu list, but as I said before I don't think the demand for it is as great as that for haskell-beginners. By the way, the haskell-art mailing list is not very active, but it has served a useful role. I wonder if it would help to have a description of it (and any new lists that we create) to the descriptions at: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Mailing_lists -Paul Hudak From byorgey at seas.upenn.edu Wed Jul 9 14:41:54 2008 From: byorgey at seas.upenn.edu (Brent Yorgey) Date: Wed Jul 9 14:32:41 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 76 - July 9, 2008 Message-ID: <20080709184154.GA2745@minus.seas.upenn.edu> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Haskell Weekly News http://sequence.complete.org/hwn/20080709 Issue 76 - July 09, 2008 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome to issue 76 of HWN, a newsletter covering developments in the [1]Haskell community. The [2]ICFP Programming Contest is this weekend! Go forth and kick some butt, Haskell-style. A big thank you in advance to all those at PSU and U Chicago who are working hard to write and run the contest. Community News Luke Palmer (luqui) is [3]having a great time in Antwerp. John Goerzen's son is [4]so cute, it should be illegal. Announcements Haskell-cafe on lively.com. Edward Kmett has created a [5]Haskell Cafe room on Google's new virtual-world platform [6]Lively (which is unfortunately windows-only at the moment). Uniplate 1.2. Neil Mitchell [7]announced the release of [8]Uniplate 1.2, a library for reducing boilerplate code by performing generic traversals. Version 1.2 features some bug fixes, a compatibility layer with Compos and SYB, and a 25-50% performance increase over Uniplate 1.0. GHC 6.8.2 stable in Gentoo. Luis Araujo [9]announced that GHC 6.8.2, and its accompanying libraries, have now been marked as stable in the official Gentoo portage tree. The Monad.Reader (11) - Call for Copy. Wouter Swierstra [10]announced a call for copy for Issue 11 of [11]the Monad.Reader. The submission deadline is August 1, although you should let Wouter know as soon as possible if you plan to submit something. hCsound. John Lato [12]announced the initial public release of [13]hCsound, a Haskell binding to the Csound audio processing language API. Portland and OSCon. John Goerzen [14]inquired whether any Haskellers in Portland would be interested in getting together during OSCon July 23 or 24. Faster graph SCCs. Iavor Diatchki [15]announced that he has implemented Tarjan's algorithm for computing the strongly connected components of a graph, which is considerably faster than the containers package for larger graphs. Iavor's implementation is available in the [16]GraphSCC package. parallel map/reduce. jinjing [17]exhibited some code for doing parallel map/reduce computations. Disciplined Disciple Compiler. Ben Lippmeier [18]announced version 1.1 of the [19]Disciplined Disciple Compiler (DDC), an explicitly lazy dialect of Haskell, with support for first class destructive update of arbitrary data, computational effects without the need for state monads, and type directed field projections. Version 1.1 includes a number of new features and more example code. darcs 2.0.2. David Roundy [20]announced the release of [21]darcs 2.0.1 and 2.0.2. These releases fix quite a few bugs, and users of darcs 2 are strongly recommended to upgrade. Google Summer of Code Progress updates from participants in the 2008 [22]Google Summer of Code. GHC plugins. Max Bolingbroke is working on dynamically loaded plugins for GHC. Over the [23]past two weeks, he has implemented type safe dynamic loading, an annotations system, and some sample plugins. Hoogle 4. Neil Mitchell (ndm) is working on [24]Hoogle 4. [25]This week, he has been working on type searching, using a much more efficient algorithm than type search in previous versions of Hoogle. Next week, he plans to finish off type search and work on the build system. DPH physics engine. Roman Cheplyaka (Feuerbach) is working on a [26]physics engine using [27]Data Parallel Haskell. He spent most of [28]this week fixing bugs and improving existing simulation code. And he now has something to [29]show for it! Language.C. Benedikt Huber (visq) is [30]working on Language.C, a standalone parser/pretty printer library for C99. [31]This week, he created a semantic representation for declarations and types, and a way to convert between an AST representation and a semantic representation. Cabal dependency framework. Andrea Vezzosi (Saizan) is working on a [32]make-like dependency analysis framework for Cabal. Generic tries. Jamie Brandon is working on a library for efficient maps using generalized tries. GHC API. Thomas Schilling (nominolo) is working on [33]improvements to the GHC API. Libraries Proposals and extensions to the [34]standard libraries. Extensible exceptions. Ian Lynagh sent out a [35]proposal to replace the current exception mechanism in the base library with extensible exceptions, a la Simon Marlow's [36]extensible extensions paper. Deadline for discussion is 25th July. Discussion Qualified import syntax badly designed (?). Neil Mitchell began a [37]discussion about Haskell syntax for qualified module imports (and module imports in general). Trouble with zip12. Michael Feathers is [38]having trouble with the zip12 function and some weird SQL-related errors... Santana on my evil ways. John D. Ramsdell [39]set off a spate of Haskell song and poetry. Alternatives to convoluted record syntax. Dougal Stanton [40]asked about alternatives to convoluted record update syntax, eliciting a number of interesting responses. Jobs Lectureship in Functional Programming, Nottingham. Graham Hutton [41]announced an opening for a Lecturer in the Functional Programming Lab in Nottingham, a recently formed research group that comprises Thorsten Altenkirch, Graham Hutton, Henrik Nilsson, four research fellows, and eleven PhD students. Applications from the Haskell community are encouraged! The closing date for applications is Friday 15th August 2008. Blog noise [42]Haskell news from the [43]blogosphere. * Edward Kmett: [44]A Lively Haskell Cafe. A Haskell Cafe room on lively.com! * Sterling Clover: [45]Comonads in everyday life. A neat post on using a zipper comonad to render a website menu hierarchy without lots of duplicated effort. * Chung-chieh Shan: [46]Differentiating regions. * Real-World Haskell: [47]Real World Haskell, The Book, Available for Pre-Order. * Benedikt Huber: [48]An analysis-friendly representation. An update on Benedikt's Google Summer of Code project, Language.C. * Chris Okasaki: [49]Breadth-First Numbering: An Algorithm in Pictures. Algorithms without words! * >>> Jeremy Frens: [50]PE Problem #2 in All Languages (Part I). Jeremy explores solutions to Project Euler problem #2 in a variety of languages. * Roman Cheplyaka: [51]Double buffering & demo. A demo of Roman's Google Summer of Code physics simulator! * Roman Cheplyaka: [52]QuickCheck puzzle: the answer. Why Roman's QuickCheck test involving nonzero vectors didn't terminate. Sneaky. * Roman Cheplyaka: [53]Status report: week 6. A status report on Roman's Google Summer of Code project. * >>> JP Moresmau: [54]Handling errors in JSON to Haskell deserialization. JP adds error handling with an Either monad to his JSON deserialization code. * Braden Shepherdson: [55]Fixed Point Datatypes. Braden explains the concept of recursive data types as fixed points of functors. * Luis Araujo: [56]GHC 6.8.2 stable! (Himerge 0.21.9 too!). * Matthew Sackman: [57]Anglo Haskell 2008. * Neil Mitchell: [58]GSoC Hoogle: Week 6. * >>> James Hague: [59]Functional Programming Went Mainstream Years Ago. * Max Bolingbroke: [60]Compiler Plugins For GHC: Weeks Three and Four. An update on Max's Google Summer of Code project. * >>> David Overton: [61]A Haskell Sudoku Solver using Finite Domain Constraints. David shows how to use his Haskell constraint solver to solve Sudoku puzzles. Pretty neat! * >>> Lorenz Pretterhofer: [62]Haskell Does Concurrency. * Edward Kmett: [63]Anamorphism. The newest installment in Edward's [64]field guide to recursion schemes. * John Goerzen (Real World Haskell): [65]Last Call for Comments on Most Chapters. Real World Haskell is going to press soon! Get your final comments in ASAP! * Edward Kmett: [66]MSFP 2008. * Lennart Augustsson: [67]Lost and Found. A very slick Haskell library for tracing how expressions are actually evaluated, including the ability to explicitly see the sharing involved! * Tom Nielsen (FP Lunch): [68]braincurry. A domain specific language to define and execute experiments and simulations related to cellular neuroscience. * Alex McLean: [69]Visualisation of a triangular mesh. * Paul R Brown: [70]Beust Sequence Ruminations. Thoughts on solving an interesting puzzle in Haskell. * >>> David Overton: [71]Constraint Programming in Haskell. David is working on a constraint logic programming system in Haskell. * >>> chaource: [72]Why functional programming is almost dead (and has always been). Interesting argument? Flawed premises? Both? None of the above? You decide! Quotes of the Week * jfredett: I'd code but I'm so drugged up I could only write effective code in perl. * SamB: [SamB] @let forkbomb n = forkbomb (2*n) `par` forkbomb (2*n+1) [lambdabot] Defined. [SamB] > forkbomb 1 -!- lambdabot [n=lambdabo@72.249.126.23] has quit [Remote closed the connection] * vinicius: haskell is macgyver with bananas, barbed wired and envelopes * dons: huh, amazon recommends Neal Stephenson + RWH * Pseudonym: trapped in the IO monad: The lesser known R. Kelly opera * byorgey: Extreme Anger Programming: you are paired with a really dumb partner and after twenty minutes of agony you rip the keyboard from their hands, delete everything they typed, and do it yourself About the Haskell Weekly News New editions are posted to [73]the Haskell mailing list as well as to [74]the Haskell Sequence and [75]Planet Haskell. [76]RSS is also available, and headlines appear on [77]haskell.org. Headlines are available as [78]PDF. To help create new editions of this newsletter, please see the information on [79]how to contribute. Send stories to byorgey at seas dot upenn dot edu. The darcs repository is available at darcs get [80]http://code.haskell.org/~byorgey/code/hwn/ . References 1. http://haskell.org/ 2. http://www.icfpcontest.org/ 3. http://luqui.org/blog/archives/2008/07/05/fun-with-flemish/ 4. http://changelog.complete.org/posts/728-guid.html 5. http://www.lively.com/dr?rid=-4485567674160322075 6. http://www.lively.com/ 7. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.general/16292 8. http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/uniplate 9. http://araujoluis.blogspot.com/2008/07/ghc-682-stable-himerge-0219-too.html 10. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.general/16290 11. http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/The_Monad.Reader 12. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.general/16288 13. http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/hCsound 14. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/42047 15. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.libraries/9470 16. http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/GraphSCC 17. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/41944 18. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/41941 19. http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/DDC 20. http://lists.osuosl.org/pipermail/darcs-users/2008-June/012480.html 21. http://darcs.net/ 22. http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/summer-of-code/wiki/SoC2008 23. http://blog.omega-prime.co.uk/2008/07/05/compiler-plugins-for-ghc-weeks-three-and-four/ 24. http://code.haskell.org/hoogle/ 25. http://neilmitchell.blogspot.com/2008/07/gsoc-hoogle-week-6.html 26. http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Hpysics 27. http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/GHC/Data_Parallel_Haskell 28. http://physics-dph.blogspot.com/2008/07/status-report-week-6.html 29. http://physics-dph.blogspot.com/2008/07/double-buffering-demo.html 30. http://www.sivity.net/projects/language.c/wiki/ 31. http://hsbene.blogspot.com/2008/07/analysis-friendly-representation.html 32. http://code.haskell.org/~Saizan/cabal 33. http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/GhcApiStatus 34. http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Library_submissions 35. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.libraries/9481 36. http://www.haskell.org/~simonmar/papers/ext-exceptions.pdf 37. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/42080 38. http://www.haskell.org//pipermail/haskell-cafe/2008-July/044956.html 39. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/41975 40. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/41936 41. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.general/16285 42. http://planet.haskell.org/ 43. http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Blog_articles 44. http://comonad.com/reader/2008/haskell-cafe/ 45. http://fmapfixreturn.wordpress.com/2008/07/09/comonads-in-everyday-life/ 46. http://conway.rutgers.edu/~ccshan/wiki/blog/posts/Differentiation/ 47. http://www.realworldhaskell.org/blog/2008/07/08/real-world-haskell-the-book-available-for-pre-order/ 48. http://hsbene.blogspot.com/2008/07/analysis-friendly-representation.html 49. http://okasaki.blogspot.com/2008/07/breadth-first-numbering-algorithm-in.html 50. http://jdfrens.blogspot.com/2008/07/pe-problem-2-in-all-languages-part-i.html 51. http://physics-dph.blogspot.com/2008/07/double-buffering-demo.html 52. http://physics-dph.blogspot.com/2008/07/quickcheck-puzzle-answer.html 53. http://physics-dph.blogspot.com/2008/07/status-report-week-6.html 54. http://jpmoresmau.blogspot.com/2008/07/handling-errors-in-json-to-haskell.html 55. http://braincrater.wordpress.com/2008/07/07/fixed-point-datatypes/ 56. http://araujoluis.blogspot.com/2008/07/ghc-682-stable-himerge-0219-too.html 57. http://www.wellquite.org/anglo_haskell_2008.html 58. http://neilmitchell.blogspot.com/2008/07/gsoc-hoogle-week-6.html 59. http://prog21.dadgum.com/31.html 60. http://blog.omega-prime.co.uk/2008/07/05/compiler-plugins-for-ghc-weeks-three-and-four/ 61. http://overtond.blogspot.com/2008/07/haskell-sudoku-solver-using-finite.html 62. http://krysole.net/2008/07/04/haskell-does-concurrency/ 63. http://comonad.com/reader/2008/anamorphism/ 64. http://comonad.com/reader/2008/recursion-schemes/ 65. http://www.realworldhaskell.org/blog/2008/07/03/last-call-for-comments-on-most-chapters/ 66. http://comonad.com/reader/2008/msfp/ 67. http://augustss.blogspot.com/2008/07/lost-and-found-if-i-write-108-in.html 68. http://sneezy.cs.nott.ac.uk/fplunch/weblog/?p=105 69. http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~ma503am/alex/visualisation-of-a-mesh/ 70. http://mult.ifario.us/p/beust-sequence-ruminations 71. http://overtond.blogspot.com/2008/07/pre.html 72. http://chaource.livejournal.com/34530.html 73. http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell 74. http://sequence.complete.org/ 75. http://planet.haskell.org/ 76. http://sequence.complete.org/node/feed 77. http://haskell.org/ 78. http://code.haskell.org/~byorgey/code/hwn/archives/20080709.pdf 79. http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/HWN 80. http://code.haskell.org/~byorgey/code/hwn/ From claus.reinke at talk21.com Thu Jul 10 11:39:15 2008 From: claus.reinke at talk21.com (Claus Reinke) Date: Fri Jul 11 04:13:21 2008 Subject: [Haskell] topics vs lists Message-ID: <018101c8e2a3$1db8b510$5d158351@cr3lt> [third attempt to avoid being blocked with: "Message has a suspicious header":-(] >> it's not obvious to me that both of those needs should be served by a >> single list. I believe it's important that the mailing lists served >> by haskell.org should have clear non-overlapping topics. For those cases where it isn't clear yet whether a spin-off mailing list would survive, for partially overlapping topics, and for those cases where a good idea didn't work out (haskell@), perhaps Mailman's topic filters are an option? Quick summary: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2007-August/058042.html List Member Manual http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-member/node29.html The idea being that beginners and overloaded advanced list members are in the same boat - they want to see the stuff relevant to them, not the whole flood of messages. For the latter, we currently have haskell@ (discussion starters and announcements), which doesn't quite work as intended, as haskell-cafe@ is the list to use if you want to see responses. So discussions start on haskell-cafe@ anyway, and announcements get copied to both lists.. There have been suggestions to rename haskell@ to haskell-announce@, but whether that would help? If topic filters were used instead, we could recommend: - current haskell@-only users: subscribe to haskell-cafe, topic [ANN] only; will keep your volume low - beginners: subscribe to haskell-cafe, topics [ANN] and [beginner] (is there a way to make that the default topic selection for new subscribers?); will protect you from confusing advanced discussions, until you feel ready for or curious about them - current haskell-cafe@ and haskell@ users: you can drop your subscription for haskell@ - current haskell-cafe@ users: just keep reading everything, or use the topics system to filter out some topics; might also get some haskell-cafe@-dropouts back?-) The [beginner] topic regex would have to cover newbie, etc, but I guess it could grow with time. If a topic really takes off, there'd be clear evidence for a new list, but seasonal topics, like [databases], [web], [arts], etc, could simply remain in the main list, reducing the need to garbage collect old unused lists. That is all assuming that this stuff works as advertized, and that managing topics isn't more work for our list admins than managing lists!-) Claus From alistair at abayley.org Fri Jul 11 06:12:56 2008 From: alistair at abayley.org (Alistair Bayley) Date: Fri Jul 11 06:03:41 2008 Subject: [Haskell] ANN: Takusen 0.8.3 Message-ID: <79d7c4980807110312h5e159834he6f9b7dd9890189@mail.gmail.com> Changes since 0.8.1 (I put 0.8.2 up on hackage with an error in Setup.hs, so it's been skipped): - ODBC support: datetime marshalling is improved. For bind parameters this uses the timestamp struct for most back-ends, but String for MS SQL Server because populating the timestamp struct always failed. - more Cabal improvements: now uses configurations, so the Setup.hs script should be both simpler and more robust. Requires Cabal >= 1.4. Oracle backend on Linux should build nicely. - bug fix for a resource leak if an exception was thrown when initiating a query (the Statement handle was not closed). - some basic result-set validation against the iteratee: if you try to fetch a column that is not in the result-set, an error is thrown (rather than garbage returned). The release bundle: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/Takusen/0.8.3/Takusen-0.8.3.tar.gz The latest code: darcs get http://darcs.haskell.org/takusen Docs: http://darcs.haskell.org/takusen/doc/html/index.html A comprehensive description of API usage can be found in the documentation for module Database.Enumerator (look for the Usage section): http://darcs.haskell.org/takusen/doc/html/Database-Enumerator.html Future plans: - Output bind-parameters and multiple-result sets for ODBC - FreeTDS backend (Sybase and MS Sql Server) - support for Blobs and Clobs For those of you unfamiliar with Takusen, here is our HCAR blurb: Takusen is a DBMS access library. Like HSQL and HDBC, we support arbitrary SQL statements (currently strings, extensible to anything that can be converted to a string). Takusen's 'unique-selling-point' is safety and efficiency. We statically ensure all acquired database resources - such as cursors, connection and statement handles - are released, exactly once, at predictable times. Takusen can avoid loading the whole result set in memory, and so can handle queries returning millions of rows in constant space. Takusen also supports automatic marshalling and unmarshalling of results and query parameters. These benefits come from the design of query result processing around a left-fold enumerator. Currently we fully support ODBC, Oracle, Sqlite, and PostgreSQL. From DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 08:40:31 2008 From: DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com (Benjamin L.Russell) Date: Fri Jul 11 08:31:25 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> Message-ID: Please allow me to thank everybody for their feedback. So far, including the three private messages I have received, there have been the following responses on creating a new mailing list for Haskell: Haskell-Beginner (or Haskell-Edu for beginners): 8 votes Haskell-Edu (for teaching): 2 votes No new mailing lists: 1 vote Undecided: 1 vote So, 8/12 of the responses have been in favor of creating some kind of new mailing list for education, with 8/10 of those being in favor of creating a new list for beginners, and 2/10 of those being in favor of creating a new list for teachers. Other than that, 1/12 of the votes has been in favor of not creating a new list unless "the perceived problem is the high-brow stuff scaring newbies off," and 1/12 of the votes has been undecided. It seems that the consensus is in favor of creating some kind of new list for beginners, with a less urgent possibility of creating another new list for teachers. I would be happy to spend the time to administer the new mailing list if that is acceptable. The only issue is the name of the new list, though: it would seem a better idea to keep the name mnemonic and short, with the suffix following "Haskell-" within three or four characters. Typing "haskell-beginner@haskell.org" seems a bit of a hassle; "haskell-edu@haskell.org" seems much better. The only possible problem is that it would then make later creating a second list just for teachers more difficult, but this seems rather unlikely at the moment. Also, I doubt that a teachers-only list would be able to gather enough critical mass to stay alive, because then only teachers would participate. I don't see why teachers wouldn't be able to participate together with students in consulting each other as to what topics to offer in beginner courses. Therefore, I would suggest the following new mailing list. To save your time, may I suggest the following entries for the fields at "Create a haskell.org Mailing List" (http://haskell.org/mailman/create): Name of List: Haskell-Edu Initial list owner address: DekuDekuplex@Yahoo.com Auto-generate initial list password?: Yes Should new members be quarantined before they are allowed to post unmoderated to this list? No Initial list of supported languages. English (If possible, Japanese and French also, since I know several members of a local Haskell Category Theory user group in Tokyo who could also participate in such a list, and know the name of at least one professor in France who occasionally contributes to Haskell-related topics. Other relevant languages could also be welcome.) Send "list created" email to list owner? Yes In addition, for the "List" and "Description" columns at "haskell.org mailing lists - Admin Links", the following entries might be applicable: List: Haskell-Edu Description: Discussion about beginner questions and issues in teaching Haskell What do you think, Simon? -- Benjamin L. Russell (http://haskell.org/mailman/admin) On Tue, 08 Jul 2008 15:38:34 -0400, Paul Hudak wrote: >Simon Marlow wrote: >> My main concern here is that the remit for the new list is not clear >> enough. I can see a potential need for two lists: >> >> * a list for discussion related to teaching Haskell; >> >> * a list devoted to those learning Haskell, with a less research- >> oriented feel than haskell-cafe. >> >> it's not obvious to me that both of those needs should be served by a >> single list. I believe it's important that the mailing lists served >> by haskell.org should have clear non-overlapping topics. >> >> So I suggest that we add haskell-edu for the purposes of discussing >> the use and teaching of Haskell in education. For the second point >> above, I'd be inclined not to add a new list, but I don't feel that >> strongly - if there's a concensus in favour of adding >> haskell-beginners (for example), that would be fine. >> >> Cheers, >> Simon >Using Simon's names, I think that there is a greater need for >haskell-beginners than for haskell-edu. Despite the friendly people on >haskell-cafe, it is very intimidating, and very busy (sadly, I've mostly >stopped reading it for the latter reason). I don't think that >haskell-cafe serves well at all as a forum for beginners, whereas it >might serve just fine as a forum for instructors. > >In any case, these are two distinct purposes, and I agree with Simon >that it's probably unwise to have a single mailing list for both. I >would vote for starting a haskell-beginners list and see how it goes. I >think that a decent number of experienced people will chip in to answer >questions (they don't have to be experts -- just good at explaining >things), and in my experience beginners like to help fellow beginners -- >i.e. it will sustain itself. > >I would also be interested in a haskell-edu list, but as I said before I >don't think the demand for it is as great as that for haskell-beginners. > >By the way, the haskell-art mailing list is not very active, but it has >served a useful role. I wonder if it would help to have a description >of it (and any new lists that we create) to the descriptions at: > >http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Mailing_lists > > -Paul Hudak From chadrwilson at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 08:47:10 2008 From: chadrwilson at gmail.com (Chad Wilson) Date: Fri Jul 11 08:37:55 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> Message-ID: >From previous experience with this sort of thing (the expansion of usage for a list(s)), I am thinking you guys have entered a territory better served by a forum. One subscription gets you access to the cafe, announcements, n00b section, teachers, core functions, etc. While a forum lacks the convenience of using your e-mail client, it does offer a better organization and clearer interface to where the information should be posted. -w From Alistair.Bayley at invesco.com Fri Jul 11 09:04:35 2008 From: Alistair.Bayley at invesco.com (Bayley, Alistair) Date: Fri Jul 11 08:55:15 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au><486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> Message-ID: <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> > From: haskell-bounces@haskell.org > [mailto:haskell-bounces@haskell.org] On Behalf Of Benjamin L.Russell > > The only issue is the name of the new list, though: it would seem a > better idea to keep the name mnemonic and short, with the suffix > following "Haskell-" within three or four characters. Typing > "haskell-beginner@haskell.org" seems a bit of a hassle; > "haskell-edu@haskell.org" seems much better. (as I approach the bike-shed, paint-tin and brush ready...) Is there a requirement that the name be prefixed with haskell-? We have cabal@haskell.org, gui@, libraries@, etc. So why not just beginner@haskell.org, novice@haskell.org, or noob@haskell.org? Alistair ***************************************************************** Confidentiality Note: The information contained in this message, and any attachments, may contain confidential and/or privileged material. It is intended solely for the person(s) or entity to which it is addressed. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. ***************************************************************** From bayer at cpw.math.columbia.edu Fri Jul 11 09:24:27 2008 From: bayer at cpw.math.columbia.edu (Dave Bayer) Date: Fri Jul 11 09:15:09 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> Message-ID: <744709C0-06AE-4A1C-8ECB-3614214FC7B3@math.columbia.edu> On Jul 11, 2008, at 5:47 AM, Chad Wilson wrote: > From previous experience with this sort of thing (the expansion of > usage for a list(s)), I am thinking you guys have entered a territory > better served by a forum. One subscription gets you access to the > cafe, announcements, n00b section, teachers, core functions, etc. > While a forum lacks the convenience of using your e-mail client, it > does offer a better organization and clearer interface to where the > information should be posted. Yes!! I participate in various lists and various forums. That Haskell uses lists has crippled my participation here; I am quite sure I am not alone. Nabble and the like do not substitute for real forum software. I know the counter-arguments in favor of lists, but most of us _do_ _not_ use an emacs mode for our email. Hasn't nearly everyone who does gone off to write their own Lisp? It truly boggles my mind that Haskell doesn't use a forum, but this is a discussion I gave up on entering, till the above message. Haskell wants to grow. Sticking to lists keeps it a "tree house" language. Now, we're so balkanized, I'd have to go back and rejoin the other Haskell lists I dropped, if I wanted to stir this up. Anyone else interested, who's on the other lists? Lurkers unite? From noteed at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 09:37:52 2008 From: noteed at gmail.com (minh thu) Date: Fri Jul 11 09:28:33 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <744709C0-06AE-4A1C-8ECB-3614214FC7B3@math.columbia.edu> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <744709C0-06AE-4A1C-8ECB-3614214FC7B3@math.columbia.edu> Message-ID: <40a414c20807110637t6d47f89fm95a2930cb50450c8@mail.gmail.com> 2008/7/11 Dave Bayer : > On Jul 11, 2008, at 5:47 AM, Chad Wilson wrote: > >> From previous experience with this sort of thing (the expansion of >> usage for a list(s)), I am thinking you guys have entered a territory >> better served by a forum. One subscription gets you access to the >> cafe, announcements, n00b section, teachers, core functions, etc. >> While a forum lacks the convenience of using your e-mail client, it >> does offer a better organization and clearer interface to where the >> information should be posted. > > Yes!! > > I participate in various lists and various forums. That Haskell > uses lists has crippled my participation here; I am quite sure I am > not alone. Nabble and the like do not substitute for real forum > software. > > I know the counter-arguments in favor of lists, but most of us > _do_ _not_ use an emacs mode for our email. Hasn't nearly > everyone who does gone off to write their own Lisp? It truly > boggles my mind that Haskell doesn't use a forum, but this is > a discussion I gave up on entering, till the above message. > > Haskell wants to grow. Sticking to lists keeps it a "tree house" > language. > > Now, we're so balkanized, I'd have to go back and rejoin > the other Haskell lists I dropped, if I wanted to stir this up. > Anyone else interested, who's on the other lists? > > Lurkers unite? Hi, Well, in my opinion, annoucements a better served with a mailing list. Usage of an mailing list is "push" while forum is "pull". This is because I check my mails regardless I want to see haskell-related stuffs or not. Thus I can spot announces. This is why I kept registered on the haskell (and -cafe) mailing list(s). I don't use haskell regularly but want to keep me informed. This is even truer since I follow (like everybody I guess) many lists. Cheers, Thu From jonathanccast at fastmail.fm Fri Jul 11 09:54:53 2008 From: jonathanccast at fastmail.fm (Jonathan Cast) Date: Fri Jul 11 09:45:31 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> Message-ID: <1215784493.6263.1.camel@jonathans-macbook> On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 08:47 -0400, Chad Wilson wrote: > >From previous experience with this sort of thing (the expansion of > usage for a list(s)), I am thinking you guys have entered a territory > better served by a forum. One subscription gets you access to the > cafe, announcements, n00b section, teachers, core functions, etc. > While a forum lacks the convenience of using your e-mail client, it > does offer a better organization and clearer interface to where the > information should be posted. If the mail interface disappears, so will I. I have never seen a worth-while web discussion interface. Ever. jcc From ganesh.sittampalam at credit-suisse.com Fri Jul 11 10:04:22 2008 From: ganesh.sittampalam at credit-suisse.com (Sittampalam, Ganesh) Date: Fri Jul 11 09:55:19 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <744709C0-06AE-4A1C-8ECB-3614214FC7B3@math.columbia.edu> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <744709C0-06AE-4A1C-8ECB-3614214FC7B3@math.columbia.edu> Message-ID: <78A3C5650E28124399107F21A1FA419401D3B708@ELON17P32002A.csfb.cs-group.com> Dave Bayer wrote: > I participate in various lists and > various forums. That Haskell uses > lists has crippled my participation > here; I am quite sure I am not alone. > Nabble and the like do not substitute > for real forum software. I'm sure you're not alone, but I'm equally sure that there are many people like me whose participation would be crippled by any switch to a forum. And I don't use an emacs mode for my email, nor have I written my own Lisp. Given the growth in traffic on haskell-cafe, perhaps offering a forum *as well* would be a reasonable thing to do. There are now enough people around that having multiple venues for discussion wouldn't be too damaging. Ganesh ============================================================================== Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic communications disclaimer: http://www.credit-suisse.com/legal/en/disclaimer_email_ib.html ============================================================================== From jonathanccast at fastmail.fm Fri Jul 11 10:09:17 2008 From: jonathanccast at fastmail.fm (Jonathan Cast) Date: Fri Jul 11 09:59:55 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <78A3C5650E28124399107F21A1FA419401D3B708@ELON17P32002A.csfb.cs-group.com> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <744709C0-06AE-4A1C-8ECB-3614214FC7B3@math.columbia.edu> <78A3C5650E28124399107F21A1FA419401D3B708@ELON17P32002A.csfb.cs-group.com> Message-ID: <1215785357.6263.3.camel@jonathans-macbook> On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 15:04 +0100, Sittampalam, Ganesh wrote: > Dave Bayer wrote: > > > I participate in various lists and > > various forums. That Haskell uses > > lists has crippled my participation > > here; I am quite sure I am not alone. > > Nabble and the like do not substitute > > for real forum software. > > I'm sure you're not alone, but I'm equally sure that there are many > people like me whose participation would be crippled by any switch to a > forum. And I don't use an emacs mode for my email, nor have I written my > own Lisp. > > Given the growth in traffic on haskell-cafe, perhaps offering a forum > *as well* would be a reasonable thing to do. There are now enough people > around that having multiple venues for discussion wouldn't be too > damaging. +1 for *this*. jcc From allbery at ece.cmu.edu Fri Jul 11 10:10:01 2008 From: allbery at ece.cmu.edu (Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH) Date: Fri Jul 11 10:00:39 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <1215784493.6263.1.camel@jonathans-macbook> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <1215784493.6263.1.camel@jonathans-macbook> Message-ID: <1D5E6532-8EBD-4CCB-86F8-FE5196FF5503@ece.cmu.edu> On 2008 Jul 11, at 9:54, Jonathan Cast wrote: > On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 08:47 -0400, Chad Wilson wrote: >>> From previous experience with this sort of thing (the expansion of >> usage for a list(s)), I am thinking you guys have entered a territory >> better served by a forum. One subscription gets you access to the >> > If the mail interface disappears, so will I. I have never seen a > worth-while web discussion interface. Ever. Agreed with a caveat: I want the ability to track the forum with either email summaries (preferred) or an RSS feed; having to manually check a web site periodically sucks and is an additional time sink I can't really afford, and will de facto result in my leaving the community. -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH From marlowsd at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 11:04:16 2008 From: marlowsd at gmail.com (Simon Marlow) Date: Fri Jul 11 10:54:59 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <1215785357.6263.3.camel@jonathans-macbook> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <744709C0-06AE-4A1C-8ECB-3614214FC7B3@math.columbia.edu> <78A3C5650E28124399107F21A1FA419401D3B708@ELON17P32002A.csfb.cs-group.com> <1215785357.6263.3.camel@jonathans-macbook> Message-ID: <48777670.5090508@gmail.com> Jonathan Cast wrote: > On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 15:04 +0100, Sittampalam, Ganesh wrote: >> Dave Bayer wrote: >> >>> I participate in various lists and >>> various forums. That Haskell uses >>> lists has crippled my participation >>> here; I am quite sure I am not alone. >>> Nabble and the like do not substitute >>> for real forum software. >> I'm sure you're not alone, but I'm equally sure that there are many >> people like me whose participation would be crippled by any switch to a >> forum. And I don't use an emacs mode for my email, nor have I written my >> own Lisp. >> >> Given the growth in traffic on haskell-cafe, perhaps offering a forum >> *as well* would be a reasonable thing to do. There are now enough people >> around that having multiple venues for discussion wouldn't be too >> damaging. > > +1 for *this*. Absolutely; I'm sure it's been said in the past that it would be generally a good thing for someone to set up forums to be used in addition to the mailing lists. I'm probably amongst those that won't participate much in the forums because I find them frustratingly slow to navigate, but I don't see any reason why we shouldn't *have* forums at all. We just need someone to set it up and do the admin. Volunteers? Cheers, Simon From marlowsd at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 11:13:12 2008 From: marlowsd at gmail.com (Simon Marlow) Date: Fri Jul 11 11:03:54 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au><486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> Message-ID: <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> Bayley, Alistair wrote: >> From: haskell-bounces@haskell.org >> [mailto:haskell-bounces@haskell.org] On Behalf Of Benjamin L.Russell >> >> The only issue is the name of the new list, though: it would seem a >> better idea to keep the name mnemonic and short, with the suffix >> following "Haskell-" within three or four characters. Typing >> "haskell-beginner@haskell.org" seems a bit of a hassle; >> "haskell-edu@haskell.org" seems much better. > > (as I approach the bike-shed, paint-tin and brush ready...) > > Is there a requirement that the name be prefixed with haskell-? We have > cabal@haskell.org, gui@, libraries@, etc. So why not just > beginner@haskell.org, novice@haskell.org, or noob@haskell.org? Quite true. Any objections to beginner@haskell.org? Cheers, Simon From ndmitchell at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 11:33:15 2008 From: ndmitchell at gmail.com (Neil Mitchell) Date: Fri Jul 11 11:23:53 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <404396ef0807110833i9b72ff1k1cde8c0d9d1dc74@mail.gmail.com> Hi > Quite true. Any objections to beginner@haskell.org? Google suggests that about 1 in 50 web pages spell "beginner" wrong, using only one "n". Given that many Haskeller's are not native speakers, could we perhaps pick something that is easier to spell correctly? Thanks Neil From drl at cs.cmu.edu Fri Jul 11 11:34:19 2008 From: drl at cs.cmu.edu (Dan Licata) Date: Fri Jul 11 11:24:58 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080711153419.GA22250@cs.cmu.edu> On Jul11, Simon Marlow wrote: > Quite true. Any objections to beginner@haskell.org? How about beginners@haskell.org ? I think the plural conveys more of a sense of community than the singular. -Dan From monnier at iro.umontreal.ca Fri Jul 11 14:39:24 2008 From: monnier at iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier) Date: Fri Jul 11 14:30:14 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <744709C0-06AE-4A1C-8ECB-3614214FC7B3@math.columbia.edu> Message-ID: > I participate in various lists and various forums. That Haskell uses > lists has crippled my participation here; I am quite sure I am not > alone. Nabble and the like do not substitute for real forum software. Funny, it's the first time I hear the argument in this direction. The only forums I read are those for which there's no newsgroup/mailing-list: not only are forums poor UI-wise (IMO, obviously), but also their content is generally much worse. It generally looks very much like "the blind leading the blind". > but most of us _do_ _not_ use an Emacs mode for our email. > Hasn't nearly everyone who does gone off to write their own Lisp? ;-) Stefan "Emacs maintainer" From bf3 at telenet.be Fri Jul 11 16:25:39 2008 From: bf3 at telenet.be (Peter Verswyvelen) Date: Fri Jul 11 16:16:17 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <404396ef0807110833i9b72ff1k1cde8c0d9d1dc74@mail.gmail.com> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <404396ef0807110833i9b72ff1k1cde8c0d9d1dc74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <010401c8e394$48e91940$dabb4bc0$@be> starter@haskell.org? "beginner" sounds so humble... Cheers, Peter Verswyvelen www.anygma.com > -----Original Message----- > From: haskell-bounces@haskell.org [mailto:haskell-bounces@haskell.org] > On Behalf Of Neil Mitchell > Sent: vrijdag 11 juli 2008 17:33 > To: Simon Marlow > Cc: Bayley, Alistair; haskell@haskell.org > Subject: Re: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education- > related Haskell-related mailing list > > Hi > > > Quite true. Any objections to beginner@haskell.org? > > Google suggests that about 1 in 50 web pages spell "beginner" wrong, > using only one "n". Given that many Haskeller's are not native > speakers, could we perhaps pick something that is easier to spell > correctly? > > Thanks > > Neil > _______________________________________________ > Haskell mailing list > Haskell@haskell.org > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell From chadrwilson at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 17:37:32 2008 From: chadrwilson at gmail.com (Chad Wilson) Date: Fri Jul 11 17:28:13 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <010401c8e394$48e91940$dabb4bc0$@be> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <404396ef0807110833i9b72ff1k1cde8c0d9d1dc74@mail.gmail.com> <010401c8e394$48e91940$dabb4bc0$@be> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 4:25 PM, Peter Verswyvelen wrote: > starter@haskell.org? > > "beginner" sounds so humble... n00b@haskell.org i@mtehl33t@haskell.org (for the experts) *chuckle* Sorry, I just had to reply. -w From allbery at ece.cmu.edu Fri Jul 11 20:22:34 2008 From: allbery at ece.cmu.edu (Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH) Date: Fri Jul 11 20:13:13 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <404396ef0807110833i9b72ff1k1cde8c0d9d1dc74@mail.gmail.com> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <404396ef0807110833i9b72ff1k1cde8c0d9d1dc74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0890EC4C-EE44-4440-BD28-7C5FB4604083@ece.cmu.edu> On 2008 Jul 11, at 11:33, Neil Mitchell wrote: >> Quite true. Any objections to beginner@haskell.org? > > Google suggests that about 1 in 50 web pages spell "beginner" wrong, > using only one "n". Given that many Haskeller's are not native > speakers, could we perhaps pick something that is easier to spell > correctly? Stealing a page from FreeBSD: questions@haskell.org ? -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH From jur at cs.uu.nl Sat Jul 12 04:53:31 2008 From: jur at cs.uu.nl (jur) Date: Sat Jul 12 04:44:11 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <010401c8e394$48e91940$dabb4bc0$@be> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <404396ef0807110833i9b72ff1k1cde8c0d9d1dc74@mail.gmail.com> <010401c8e394$48e91940$dabb4bc0$@be> Message-ID: <6491B577-5AF1-4A8C-90B2-E6D63545B70D@cs.uu.nl> On Jul 11, 2008, at 10:25 PM, Peter Verswyvelen wrote: > starter@haskell.org? > > "beginner" sounds so humble... > newto@haskell.org ? novice@haskell.org ? Jur > Cheers, > Peter Verswyvelen > www.anygma.com > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: haskell-bounces@haskell.org [mailto:haskell- >> bounces@haskell.org] >> On Behalf Of Neil Mitchell >> Sent: vrijdag 11 juli 2008 17:33 >> To: Simon Marlow >> Cc: Bayley, Alistair; haskell@haskell.org >> Subject: Re: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education- >> related Haskell-related mailing list >> >> Hi >> >>> Quite true. Any objections to beginner@haskell.org? >> >> Google suggests that about 1 in 50 web pages spell "beginner" wrong, >> using only one "n". Given that many Haskeller's are not native >> speakers, could we perhaps pick something that is easier to spell >> correctly? >> >> Thanks >> >> Neil >> _______________________________________________ >> Haskell mailing list >> Haskell@haskell.org >> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell > > _______________________________________________ > Haskell mailing list > Haskell@haskell.org > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell From abhay.parvate at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 05:54:01 2008 From: abhay.parvate at gmail.com (Abhay Parvate) Date: Sat Jul 12 05:44:36 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <6491B577-5AF1-4A8C-90B2-E6D63545B70D@cs.uu.nl> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <404396ef0807110833i9b72ff1k1cde8c0d9d1dc74@mail.gmail.com> <010401c8e394$48e91940$dabb4bc0$@be> <6491B577-5AF1-4A8C-90B2-E6D63545B70D@cs.uu.nl> Message-ID: <3c4d5adf0807120254ufddfc49xd9da57e14b59a574@mail.gmail.com> takeoff@haskell.org? budding@haskell.org? junior@haskell.org? classroom@haskell.org? factorial@haskell.org? Regards, Abhay On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 2:23 PM, jur wrote: > > On Jul 11, 2008, at 10:25 PM, Peter Verswyvelen wrote: > > starter@haskell.org? >> >> "beginner" sounds so humble... >> >> > > newto@haskell.org ? > novice@haskell.org ? > > Jur > > > Cheers, >> Peter Verswyvelen >> www.anygma.com >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: haskell-bounces@haskell.org [mailto:haskell-bounces@haskell.org] >>> On Behalf Of Neil Mitchell >>> Sent: vrijdag 11 juli 2008 17:33 >>> To: Simon Marlow >>> Cc: Bayley, Alistair; haskell@haskell.org >>> Subject: Re: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education- >>> related Haskell-related mailing list >>> >>> Hi >>> >>> Quite true. Any objections to beginner@haskell.org? >>>> >>> >>> Google suggests that about 1 in 50 web pages spell "beginner" wrong, >>> using only one "n". Given that many Haskeller's are not native >>> speakers, could we perhaps pick something that is easier to spell >>> correctly? >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Neil >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Haskell mailing list >>> Haskell@haskell.org >>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Haskell mailing list >> Haskell@haskell.org >> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell >> > > _______________________________________________ > Haskell mailing list > Haskell@haskell.org > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell/attachments/20080712/7daf5cbe/attachment.htm From ajb at spamcop.net Sat Jul 12 06:00:57 2008 From: ajb at spamcop.net (ajb@spamcop.net) Date: Sat Jul 12 05:51:33 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <3c4d5adf0807120254ufddfc49xd9da57e14b59a574@mail.gmail.com> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <404396ef0807110833i9b72ff1k1cde8c0d9d1dc74@mail.gmail.com> <010401c8e394$48e91940$dabb4bc0$@be> <6491B577-5AF1-4A8C-90B2-E6D63545B70D@cs.uu.nl> <3c4d5adf0807120254ufddfc49xd9da57e14b59a574@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080712060057.531s0iotfokw08wo-nwo@webmail.spamcop.net> G'day all. Quoting Abhay Parvate : > factorial@haskell.org? havent-written-a-monad-tutorial-yet@haskell.org Cheers, Andrew Bromage From DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com Mon Jul 14 00:38:07 2008 From: DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com (Benjamin L.Russell) Date: Mon Jul 14 00:28:47 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <744709C0-06AE-4A1C-8ECB-3614214FC7B3@math.columbia.edu> <78A3C5650E28124399107F21A1FA419401D3B708@ELON17P32002A.csfb.cs-group.com> <1215785357.6263.3.camel@jonathans-macbook> <48777670.5090508@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:04:16 +0100, Simon Marlow wrote: > [...] > >I'm probably amongst those that won't participate much in the forums >because I find them frustratingly slow to navigate, but I don't see any >reason why we shouldn't *have* forums at all. We just need someone to set >it up and do the admin. Volunteers? Count me in as a volunteer for the admin, please. -- Benjamin L. Russell From DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com Mon Jul 14 00:43:47 2008 From: DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com (Benjamin L.Russell) Date: Mon Jul 14 00:34:30 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <20080711153419.GA22250@cs.cmu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:34:19 -0400, Dan Licata wrote: How about help@haskell.org? -- Benjamin L. Russell >On Jul11, Simon Marlow wrote: >> Quite true. Any objections to beginner@haskell.org? > >How about beginners@haskell.org ? I think the plural conveys more of a >sense of community than the singular. From DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com Mon Jul 14 01:00:15 2008 From: DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com (Benjamin L.Russell) Date: Mon Jul 14 00:50:57 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list References: <8F5124E0-BB0C-44DD-B8B0-E17C2A8C1567@cse.unsw.edu.au> <486DF001.9000300@gmail.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <744709C0-06AE-4A1C-8ECB-3614214FC7B3@math.columbia.edu> <78A3C5650E28124399107F21A1FA419401D3B708@ELON17P32002A.csfb.cs-group.com> <1215785357.6263.3.camel@jonathans-macbook> <48777670.5090508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8dml74d4ok8veqrogjq4b0ssmhn9agtkho@4ax.com> I forgot to mention that I used to be a moderator for a discussion forum at MetroMac.org, a New York Macintosh user group. Then one day a cracker came along, deleted all the posts of *all* the users (and the backups!), and somehow figured out how to removed my moderator privileges in the database as well. (The owners of that site needed a scapegoat, so they blamed *me* for being the direct target of the attack (I have no idea why), and didn't restore my moderator privileges. Since they had lost all their posts as well, they then needed to spend countless hours building a new forum and trying to gain back readership, a situation which made they extremely frustrated and angry. They did give me a free Supporting Member account, which normally costs USD $20/year, for one year, but that was all. They also forbade me from posting many new posts in direct succession in other forums to make up for the lost posts, perhaps in fear that that could somehow risk another cracker attack.) If a new forum is created, I strongly recommend that mail message copies of all posts also be sent, and that *off-site* backups be made frequently. Web discussion forums are much more susceptible to cracker attacks than mailing lists unless e-mail messages of all posts are also sent, because the posts are normally stored in a database. However, if you do need somebody to moderate/administer the forum, I may be able to pick up quickly on the details, since I do have experience as a moderator. -- Benjamin L. Russell On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:38:07 +0900, Benjamin L.Russell wrote: >On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:04:16 +0100, Simon Marlow >wrote: > >> [...] >> >>I'm probably amongst those that won't participate much in the forums >>because I find them frustratingly slow to navigate, but I don't see any >>reason why we shouldn't *have* forums at all. We just need someone to set >>it up and do the admin. Volunteers? > >Count me in as a volunteer for the admin, please. > >-- Benjamin L. Russell From marlowsd at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 06:04:04 2008 From: marlowsd at gmail.com (Simon Marlow) Date: Mon Jul 14 05:54:38 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <20080711153419.GA22250@cs.cmu.edu> Message-ID: <487B2494.90804@gmail.com> Best suggestions I've seen so far: beginners@haskell.org (I like the plural better too, thanks Dan) help@haskell.org questions@haskell.org let me know your preference (privately, unless you have anything else to add to the discussion). Cheers, Simon From dekudekuplex at yahoo.com Mon Jul 14 06:12:00 2008 From: dekudekuplex at yahoo.com (Benjamin L. Russell) Date: Mon Jul 14 06:02:34 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <001501c8e595$9674bd60$15b2a8c0@usergg9frpf9cg> Message-ID: <643329.63217.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 7/14/08, Angelos Sphyris wrote: > From: Angelos Sphyris > Subject: Re: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu,a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list > To: "Benjamin L.Russell" > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 6:40 PM > I would avoid help@haskell.org as that seems to me to > suggest a general help > archive/source complete with manuals, faqs, examples etc. > > How about arche@haskell.org ? > Arche is Greek for 'start', 'beginning'. It > is used in the word 'hierarchy' > and is suitably short, as well as being original. > > Angelos Sphyris While this is an excellent name in itself--short, original, and intellectual, fitting the nature of the list--it would seem to suggest some (albeit heretofore nonexistent) alternative library named "Arche" for Haskell for readers unfamiliar with this name. The main problem is that, by itself, the name doesn't ring a bell for readers unfamiliar with Greek etymology, and seems to be a very creative name for some Haskell tool. Nevertheless, because this name is so original, I am forwarding it to the Haskell mailing list as a reference. I would alternatively suggest alpha@haskell.org (the beginning) for beginners, and omega@haskell.org (the end) for teachers. -- Benjamin L. Russell From DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com Mon Jul 14 07:18:29 2008 From: DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com (Benjamin L.Russell) Date: Mon Jul 14 07:09:03 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <20080711153419.GA22250@cs.cmu.edu> <487B2494.90804@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0ucm74ltnl9k24agm0du7fb0gnk4q8jesf@4ax.com> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:04:04 +0100, Simon Marlow wrote: >Best suggestions I've seen so far: > > beginners@haskell.org (I like the plural better too, thanks Dan) > help@haskell.org > questions@haskell.org > >let me know your preference (privately, unless you have anything else to >add to the discussion). Thank you, Simon. Personally, I think that there are problems with all three names, though: beginners@haskell.org: Although this name definitely captures the flavor of the mailing list and also conveys a sense of community (with the addition of the 's,' thanks to Dan Licata), the double-n is easy to mistake for beginners, and a new user would probably have difficulty remembering whether the name was "beginner" or "beginners" if a sudden question arose after six months of absence from the mailing list. help@haskell.org: As Angelos Sphyris pointed out in a private e-mail message (which I later forwarded to this mailing list), this seems to suggest a general help archive/source complete with manuals, faqs, examples etc. More importantly, it does not suggest a sense of community. questions@haskell.org: This name limits the scope of the list to questions, as opposed to general beginner topics, and does not seem appropriate for non-question beginner-related issues. Also, this name does not convey a sense of community. Since this new list is about beginner issues for Haskell, a functional programming language, ideally, the name should simultaneously be short, easy to remember, academic, suggest general beginner issues, and, if possible, suggest a sense of community. The best alternatives that I have come up with are the following: alpha@haskell.org: This name denotes a Greek letter used in mathematics, is associated with a beginning, is academic, but does not really suggest a sense of community. lambda-alpha@haskell.org: This name denotes two Greek letters used in mathematics, ordered so as to denote a beginning of the lambda-calculus, and is academic, but does not really suggest a sense of community. haskell-alpha@haskell.org: This name denotes a Greek letter used in mathematics, is associated with a beginning, is academic, and suggests a sense of community. haskell-lambda-alpha@haskell.org: This name is simply too long to remember. In sum, I suggest haskell-alpha@haskell.org. Any better alternatives? -- Benjamin L. Russell From bf3 at telenet.be Mon Jul 14 07:24:36 2008 From: bf3 at telenet.be (Peter Verswyvelen) Date: Mon Jul 14 07:15:05 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <0ucm74ltnl9k24agm0du7fb0gnk4q8jesf@4ax.com> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <20080711153419.GA22250@cs.cmu.edu> <487B2494.90804@gmail.com> <0ucm74ltnl9k24agm0du7fb0gnk4q8jesf@4ax.com> Message-ID: <005a01c8e5a4$341e7e30$9c5b7a90$@be> Well, if somebody can't spell "beginners" correctly, I highly doubt they will get "alpha" right... Certainly if they drive an Alfa Romeo car ;) Even so, another alternative would just be "begin@haskell.com"... > -----Original Message----- > From: haskell-bounces@haskell.org [mailto:haskell-bounces@haskell.org] > On Behalf Of Benjamin L.Russell > Sent: maandag 14 juli 2008 13:18 > To: haskell@haskell.org > Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related > Haskell-related mailing list > > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:04:04 +0100, Simon Marlow > wrote: > > >Best suggestions I've seen so far: > > > > beginners@haskell.org (I like the plural better too, thanks Dan) > > help@haskell.org > > questions@haskell.org > > > >let me know your preference (privately, unless you have anything else > to > >add to the discussion). > > Thank you, Simon. > > Personally, I think that there are problems with all three names, > though: > > beginners@haskell.org: Although this name definitely captures the > flavor of the mailing list and also conveys a sense of community (with > the addition of the 's,' thanks to Dan Licata), the double-n is easy > to mistake for beginners, and a new user would probably have > difficulty remembering whether the name was "beginner" or "beginners" > if a sudden question arose after six months of absence from the > mailing list. > > help@haskell.org: As Angelos Sphyris pointed out in a private e-mail > message (which I later forwarded to this mailing list), this seems to > suggest a general help archive/source complete with manuals, faqs, > examples etc. More importantly, it does not suggest a sense of > community. > > questions@haskell.org: This name limits the scope of the list to > questions, as opposed to general beginner topics, and does not seem > appropriate for non-question beginner-related issues. Also, this name > does not convey a sense of community. > > Since this new list is about beginner issues for Haskell, a functional > programming language, ideally, the name should simultaneously be > short, easy to remember, academic, suggest general beginner issues, > and, if possible, suggest a sense of community. The best alternatives > that I have come up with are the following: > > alpha@haskell.org: This name denotes a Greek letter used in > mathematics, is associated with a beginning, is academic, but does not > really suggest a sense of community. > > lambda-alpha@haskell.org: This name denotes two Greek letters used in > mathematics, ordered so as to denote a beginning of the > lambda-calculus, and is academic, but does not really suggest a sense > of community. > > haskell-alpha@haskell.org: This name denotes a Greek letter used in > mathematics, is associated with a beginning, is academic, and suggests > a sense of community. > > haskell-lambda-alpha@haskell.org: This name is simply too long to > remember. > > In sum, I suggest haskell-alpha@haskell.org. Any better alternatives? > > -- Benjamin L. Russell > > _______________________________________________ > Haskell mailing list > Haskell@haskell.org > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell From noteed at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 07:45:31 2008 From: noteed at gmail.com (minh thu) Date: Mon Jul 14 07:36:00 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <0ucm74ltnl9k24agm0du7fb0gnk4q8jesf@4ax.com> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <20080711153419.GA22250@cs.cmu.edu> <487B2494.90804@gmail.com> <0ucm74ltnl9k24agm0du7fb0gnk4q8jesf@4ax.com> Message-ID: <40a414c20807140445g54724278l9dd5e1745d75b41d@mail.gmail.com> > [snip] > beginners@haskell.org: Although this name definitely captures the > flavor of the mailing list and also conveys a sense of community (with > the addition of the 's,' thanks to Dan Licata), the double-n is easy > to mistake for beginners, and a new user would probably have > difficulty remembering whether the name was "beginner" or "beginners" > if a sudden question arose after six months of absence from the > mailing list. Don't we need to register to be able to post to the ml ? Don't we need to see (and the copy(/paste)) the address in the first place ? Don't we get an automated response with some info (including a reminder of the ml address) ? The issue of mispelling a mail address is a bit weak imo. Cheers, Thu From martijn at van.steenbergen.nl Mon Jul 14 07:48:38 2008 From: martijn at van.steenbergen.nl (Martijn van Steenbergen) Date: Mon Jul 14 07:39:08 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <40a414c20807140445g54724278l9dd5e1745d75b41d@mail.gmail.com> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <20080711153419.GA22250@cs.cmu.edu> <487B2494.90804@gmail.com> <0ucm74ltnl9k24agm0du7fb0gnk4q8jesf@4ax.com> <40a414c20807140445g54724278l9dd5e1745d75b41d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <487B3D16.4090409@van.steenbergen.nl> minh thu wrote: >> [snip] >> beginners@haskell.org: Although this name definitely captures the >> flavor of the mailing list and also conveys a sense of community (with >> the addition of the 's,' thanks to Dan Licata), the double-n is easy >> to mistake for beginners, and a new user would probably have >> difficulty remembering whether the name was "beginner" or "beginners" >> if a sudden question arose after six months of absence from the >> mailing list. > > Don't we need to register to be able to post to the ml ? > Don't we need to see (and the copy(/paste)) the address in the first place ? > Don't we get an automated response with some info (including a > reminder of the ml address) ? > The issue of mispelling a mail address is a bit weak imo. And can't we set up aliases in case this really turns out to be a problem? Groetjes, Martijn. From bulat.ziganshin at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 07:44:41 2008 From: bulat.ziganshin at gmail.com (Bulat Ziganshin) Date: Mon Jul 14 07:41:45 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <005a01c8e5a4$341e7e30$9c5b7a90$@be> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <20080711153419.GA22250@cs.cmu.edu> <487B2494.90804@gmail.com> <0ucm74ltnl9k24agm0du7fb0gnk4q8jesf@4ax.com> <005a01c8e5a4$341e7e30$9c5b7a90$@be> Message-ID: <874000851.20080714154441@gmail.com> Hello Peter, Monday, July 14, 2008, 3:24:36 PM, you wrote: > Well, if somebody can't spell "beginners" correctly, I highly doubt they i really doesn't understand the problem - they will select from list, not type it. i think that beginners, novice or smth like this should be good - people will join this list, learn haskell basics and then switch to "adult" list. it's usual practice - novices learn herself, then remain in a list for a while answering new newbies questions, then leave it going to "adult" list. so we will had there people that will learn each other and don't make too-smart answers to simple questions so, i propose novice(s), newbie(s), beginner(s) -- Best regards, Bulat mailto:Bulat.Ziganshin@gmail.com From rendel at daimi.au.dk Mon Jul 14 08:39:11 2008 From: rendel at daimi.au.dk (Tillmann Rendel) Date: Mon Jul 14 08:29:46 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <0ucm74ltnl9k24agm0du7fb0gnk4q8jesf@4ax.com> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <20080711153419.GA22250@cs.cmu.edu> <487B2494.90804@gmail.com> <0ucm74ltnl9k24agm0du7fb0gnk4q8jesf@4ax.com> Message-ID: <487B48EF.60206@daimi.au.dk> Benjamin L.Russell wrote: > beginners@haskell.org: Although this name definitely captures the > flavor of the mailing list and also conveys a sense of community (with > the addition of the 's,' thanks to Dan Licata), the double-n is easy > to mistake for beginners, and a new user would probably have > difficulty remembering whether the name was "beginner" or "beginners" > if a sudden question arose after six months of absence from the > mailing list. I don't think the usability of the email address is that important, given that most computer users are quite happy with near-random hard-to-spell email addresses they find cool, and mail clients help with address management. Maybe technical measures could be taken to handle misaddressed mails if there is a need for it? Much more important seems the semantic (exactly: pragmatic) content of the list name, which should both invite a new haskeller to join the list, and spring to mind in typical usage scenarios like having questions or wondering about Haskell. > Since this new list is about beginner issues for Haskell, a functional > programming language, ideally, the name should simultaneously be > short, easy to remember, academic, suggest general beginner issues, > and, if possible, suggest a sense of community. The best alternatives > that I have come up with are the following: I disagree with the goal that the name should be academic. An academic name could create an entrance barrier both for non-academic beginners and non-topgrade students who search for homework-help@haskell.org, not insights@haskell.org. As another source of confusion, alpha is not only used for the beginning, but also for leaders (see [1]). A quick web search revealed that quite a number of programming languages have beginners@... lists. Interestingly, their description invariantly includes the term "a friendly place", which may be nice for a beginner to read before subscribing, but is somewhat misleading in the case of the Haskell community, which is a big friendly place in itself. Tillmann [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_%28biology%29 From claus.reinke at talk21.com Mon Jul 14 09:28:53 2008 From: claus.reinke at talk21.com (Claus Reinke) Date: Mon Jul 14 09:19:27 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com><20080711153419.GA22250@cs.cmu.edu><487B2494.90804@gmail.com> <0ucm74ltnl9k24agm0du7fb0gnk4q8jesf@4ax.com> Message-ID: <010001c8e5b5$90f0a370$743b8351@cr3lt> >> beginners@haskell.org (I like the plural better too, thanks Dan) That might be useable, but is likely to suffer from the variety of Haskell beginner backgrounds and the resulting variety of initial interests (topics that got them interested in Haskell, or that would help them to get up to speed with Haskell): - abstract maths: categorical connections - numeric maths: optimizations/libraries/profiling/.. - logic: Curry-Howard/advanced types - web programming: database libraries/cgi/html/xml/.. - sml/ocaml: how do I do my higher-order functors and side-effects in Haskell? - biocomputing: how do I do high-volume data harvesting efficiently in Haskell? - etc, etc If you throw all Haskell beginners into a single list, won't you end up with, well, haskell-cafe@? IIRC, the subject of this thread was about a specific group of Haskell beginners and their projected needs, in particular, that they might find beginning easier if isolated from the buzz of haskell-cafe@, in a community of similar interests, different from those of other Haskell beginners. Using topics to focus interests within a single haskell-cafe would at least have a chance of getting there (the one drawback: I can't think of a way to ensure that beginner's emails have a [newbie] keyword, so they might not see their own mails), and would make the helpful subscribers of said list available for answers (they might even be able not to mention unsafePerformIO, higher-order type class dodomorphisms, and the like in a [newbie] thread?-). You could, of course, try beginners@, and whenever someone gets no answers there, direct them to try haskell-cafe@. But would you want to force the threads in beginners@ to be interest-independent, to avoid scaring other beginners with specialist discussions? >> help@haskell.org >> questions@haskell.org These seem misleading - noone is promising help/answers on that list, and many subscribers are happy to provide both on other lists. > Personally, I think that there are problems with all three names, > though: .. > Since this new list is about beginner issues for Haskell, a functional > programming language, ideally, the name should simultaneously be > short, easy to remember, academic, suggest general beginner issues, > and, if possible, suggest a sense of community. The best alternatives > that I have come up with are the following: IMHO, all of this is seriously starting to move in wrong directions. What is needed is a discussion of list charter. The only thing I've seen was "Discussion about beginner questions and issues in teaching Haskell", with the implicit assumption that those beginners are non-academic students, but in some form of education/school. If that is the target, with the idea that teachers can point their students someplace suitable, and students/teachers can meet others in the same boat, then edu@haskell or school@haskell might work. Claus From monnier at iro.umontreal.ca Mon Jul 14 22:07:26 2008 From: monnier at iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier) Date: Mon Jul 14 21:58:07 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <20080711153419.GA22250@cs.cmu.edu> <487B2494.90804@gmail.com> Message-ID: > beginners@haskell.org (I like the plural better too, thanks Dan) > help@haskell.org > questions@haskell.org FWIW, the GNU projects typically have mailing lists called "bug" for bug reports, and "help" for general discussions. So "help" sounds pretty good. But... bikeshed ahead! Stefan From DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 01:17:22 2008 From: DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com (Benjamin L.Russell) Date: Tue Jul 15 01:08:03 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com><20080711153419.GA22250@cs.cmu.edu><487B2494.90804@gmail.com> <0ucm74ltnl9k24agm0du7fb0gnk4q8jesf@4ax.com> <010001c8e5b5$90f0a370$743b8351@cr3lt> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:28:53 +0100, "Claus Reinke" wrote: > [...] > >What is needed is a discussion of list charter. The only thing I've >seen was "Discussion about beginner questions and issues in >teaching Haskell", with the implicit assumption that those beginners >are non-academic students, but in some form of education/school. How about the following mailing list description? "Discussion about beginner issues in learning Haskell" Would this be suitable? >If that is the target, with the idea that teachers can point their >students someplace suitable, and students/teachers can meet >others in the same boat, then edu@haskell or school@haskell >might work. Yes, I partially agree with haskell-edu@haskell.org, but this has already been discussed (by Paul Hudak, at 04:38 on 2008/07/09); viz.: > I would also be interested in a haskell-edu list, but as I said before I > don't think the demand for it is as great as that for haskell-beginners. The overall reasoning by users against that name was that it was not suitable because it confused teaching and learning, without clearly separating the two issues. Would you have an argument that I could use to refute this theory? -- Benjamin L. Russell From DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 01:20:51 2008 From: DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com (Benjamin L.Russell) Date: Tue Jul 15 01:15:31 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <20080711153419.GA22250@cs.cmu.edu> <487B2494.90804@gmail.com> <0ucm74ltnl9k24agm0du7fb0gnk4q8jesf@4ax.com> <487B48EF.60206@daimi.au.dk> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:39:11 +0200, Tillmann Rendel wrote: >Benjamin L.Russell wrote: > [...] > >A quick web search revealed that quite a number of programming languages >have beginners@... lists. Interestingly, their description invariantly >includes the term "a friendly place", which may be nice for a beginner >to read before subscribing, but is somewhat misleading in the case of >the Haskell community, which is a big friendly place in itself. Indeed. I just did a search on the Internet, and came up with four examples of either existing mailing list names including beginners/tutor, or posts by users looking for such mailing lists; viz.: "ocaml_beginners : Ocaml Beginners": http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners/#ans ocaml_beginners@yahoogroups.com "Do [sic] a "Python beginners e-mail list" exist?": http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2005-July/330615.html Nabble - fink-beginners forum & mailing list archive: http://www.nabble.com/fink-beginners-f4237.html Tutor Info Page: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor The naming trend seems to be as follows: For beginner lists, as opposed to announcement-related lists: Iif the name of the domain does not include the language-name, then the list name is _beginners@domain-name For example, in the case of OCaml (see the aforementioned "ocaml_beginners : Ocaml Beginners" at http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners/#ans), it is ocaml_beginners@yahoogroups.com However, if the name of the domain includes the language-name, then the language-name is truncated from the list name, as follows: tutor@.org For example, in the case of Python (see the aforementioned "Tutor Info Page" at http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor), it is tutor@python.org Since the overall response seems to be to prefer "beginners" for the list-name here, logic would seem to dictate that the optimal choice would be beginners@haskell.org If so, we would then have the following mailing list: Name of List: Beginners Address of List: beginners@haskell.org Description: Discussion about beginner issues in learning Haskell (per Claus Reinke's emphasis on a "list charter," in his response at 22:28 on 2008/07/14); viz.: > What is needed is a discussion of list charter. The only thing I've > seen was "Discussion about beginner questions and issues in > teaching Haskell", with the implicit assumption that those beginners > are non-academic students, but in some form of education/school. ) If this is acceptable to everyone, I am considering suggesting the above to Simon. Any comments, responses, suggestions, etc.? -- Benjamin L. Russell From DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 03:19:45 2008 From: DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com (Benjamin L.Russell) Date: Tue Jul 15 03:10:22 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <20080711153419.GA22250@cs.cmu.edu> <487B2494.90804@gmail.com> <0ucm74ltnl9k24agm0du7fb0gnk4q8jesf@4ax.com> <487B48EF.60206@daimi.au.dk> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:20:51 +0900, Benjamin L.Russell wrote: >[...] > >The naming trend seems to be as follows: > >For beginner lists, as opposed to announcement-related lists: > >Iif the name of the domain does not include the language-name, then >the list name is > >_beginners@domain-name > >For example, in the case of OCaml (see the aforementioned >"ocaml_beginners : Ocaml Beginners" at >http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners/#ans), it is > >ocaml_beginners@yahoogroups.com > >However, if the name of the domain includes the language-name, then >the language-name is truncated from the list name, as follows: > >tutor@.org > >For example, in the case of Python (see the aforementioned "Tutor Info >Page" at http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor), it is > >tutor@python.org > >Since the overall response seems to be to prefer "beginners" for the >list-name here, logic would seem to dictate that the optimal choice >would be > >beginners@haskell.org This is just a minor point, but I have been rereading through the posts in this thread, and saw again a post by Paul Hudak mentioning "haskell-beginners" as a possibility (04:38 on 2008/07/09); viz.: > Using Simon's names, I think that there is a greater need for > haskell-beginners than for haskell-edu. Despite the friendly people on > haskell-cafe, it is very intimidating, and very busy (sadly, I've mostly > stopped reading it for the latter reason). I don't think that > haskell-cafe serves well at all as a forum for beginners, whereas it > might serve just fine as a forum for instructors. Then I looked through the list of mailing list names at haskell.org (see "haskell.org Mailing Lists" at http://haskell.org/mailman/listinfo), and discovered that there seems to be a kind of pattern where names that do not begin with "haskell" seem to be devoted to specific compilers/tools/packages/etc. not concerning general Haskell, whereas names that do seem to be devoted to general Haskell issues. In keeping with this trend, it might be a good idea to have "haskell-beginners@haskell.org" after all, in line with "haskell@haskell.org" and "haskell-cafe@haskell.org", to differentiate the new general Haskell beginners list from more specialized lists such as "blogs@haskell.org", "ffi@haskell.org", "hat@haskell.org", and "helium@haskell.org". The only exception that I can find to this trend on that page is "wikibook@haskell.org", which stalled a few months after launch, and specialized in the Wikibook anyway. So perhaps "haskell-beginners@haskell.org" is not such a bad idea after all.... Any comments? -- Benjamin L. Russell From claus.reinke at talk21.com Tue Jul 15 03:24:44 2008 From: claus.reinke at talk21.com (Claus Reinke) Date: Tue Jul 15 03:15:15 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com><20080711153419.GA22250@cs.cmu.edu><487B2494.90804@gmail.com><0ucm74ltnl9k24agm0du7fb0gnk4q8jesf@4ax.com><010001c8e5b5$90f0a370$743b8351@cr3lt> Message-ID: <7b3601c8e64b$dbfd5ed0$743b8351@cr3lt> >>What is needed is a discussion of list charter. The only thing I've >>seen was "Discussion about beginner questions and issues in >>teaching Haskell", with the implicit assumption that those beginners >>are non-academic students, but in some form of education/school. > > How about the following mailing list description? > "Discussion about beginner issues in learning Haskell" > > Would this be suitable? It differs from/is more general than your original interests/aims: 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal arts education, as opposed to an engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. The primary audience of this new mailing list would be [educators and] students in a liberal arts curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for studying functional programming. but whether that is a good thing or not, I couldn't say. I was merely suggesting that thinking in more detail about the charter and possible users of that list might help you see whether it is likely to serve your interests, or serve other needs in the community. I had the feeling that, while most posters were positive about a new list/forum, they actually had quite different ideas regarding the purpose/target audience for that list, each assuming that this list would be "their" list. Names can follow once the purpose is clear. > The overall reasoning by users against that name was that it was not > suitable because it confused teaching and learning, without clearly > separating the two issues. Would you have an argument that I could > use to refute this theory? "There is no teaching, only contexts for learning"?-) The argument was that lists for those engaged in learning and those engaged in providing suitable learning contexts should be separate, not that edu@ couldn't be used as a name for either list (although it might not be specific enough for (2), and too specific for your new charter). Claus From DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 04:49:41 2008 From: DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com (Benjamin L.Russell) Date: Tue Jul 15 04:40:15 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list References: <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com><20080711153419.GA22250@cs.cmu.edu><487B2494.90804@gmail.com><0ucm74ltnl9k24agm0du7fb0gnk4q8jesf@4ax.com><010001c8e5b5$90f0a370$743b8351@cr3lt> <7b3601c8e64b$dbfd5ed0$743b8351@cr3lt> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:24:44 +0100, "Claus Reinke" wrote: >>>What is needed is a discussion of list charter. The only thing I've >>>seen was "Discussion about beginner questions and issues in >>>teaching Haskell", with the implicit assumption that those beginners >>>are non-academic students, but in some form of education/school. >> >> How about the following mailing list description? >> "Discussion about beginner issues in learning Haskell" >> >> Would this be suitable? > >It differs from/is more general than your original interests/aims: > > 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum > to serve the needs of non-computer-science students of Haskell > who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for learning programming > as part of a well-rounded a liberal arts education, as opposed to an > engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. > > The primary audience of this new mailing list would be [educators and] > students in a liberal arts curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell > for studying functional programming. > >but whether that is a good thing or not, I couldn't say. I was merely >suggesting that thinking in more detail about the charter and possible >users of that list might help you see whether it is likely to serve your >interests, or serve other needs in the community. I had the feeling >that, while most posters were positive about a new list/forum, they >actually had quite different ideas regarding the purpose/target audience >for that list, each assuming that this list would be "their" list. Names >can follow once the purpose is clear. In that case, how about the following, more detailed charter: "Beginner-level discussion about primarily non-research-oriented topics serving the needs of non-computer-science students of Haskell wishing to focus on Haskell as a language for learning programming as part of a well-rounded liberal arts education" Although admittedly rather long-winded, this charter is more detailed, and better elucidates the purpose of the list. > >> The overall reasoning by users against that name was that it was not >> suitable because it confused teaching and learning, without clearly >> separating the two issues. Would you have an argument that I could >> use to refute this theory? > >"There is no teaching, only contexts for learning"?-) The argument >was that lists for those engaged in learning and those engaged in >providing suitable learning contexts should be separate, not that >edu@ couldn't be used as a name for either list (although it might >not be specific enough for (2), and too specific for your new >charter). That's what I thought, too, until I got the following response to the contrary from a reader in private e-mail: > Not sure if another list is a good idea or not, but if it is a good > idea, it should be beginner focused. > > > The only issue is the name of the new list, though: it would seem a > > better idea to keep the name mnemonic and short, with the suffix > > following "Haskell-" within three or four characters. Typing > > "haskell-beginner@haskell.org" seems a bit of a hassle; > > "haskell-edu@haskell.org" seems much better. > > haskell-learn@haskell.org ? > > haskell-edu just seems to say the wrong thing, for the sole reason > that it's short, which seems like a bad idea. Until I received this message, I was originally interested in haskell-edu@haskell.org, because I felt that "haskell-edu" suggested a discussion forum for both beginner-level students and non-research educators of Haskell, where non-research-related beginner-level questions would be encouraged. However, some other readers felt that this scope would be too broad, insufficiently beginner-focused, potentially educator-focused, and that it could potentially conflict with that of Haskell-Cafe (despite the fact that Haskell-Cafe is de facto a research-oriented discussion forum). So then, after numerous tosses and turns and helpful suggestions, I agreed to the alternative haskell-beginners@haskell.org. If you have a sufficiently convincing and overriding argument for the original haskell-edu@haskell.org name, by all means, please let us know! -- Benjamin L. Russell From alistair at abayley.org Tue Jul 15 07:58:45 2008 From: alistair at abayley.org (Alistair Bayley) Date: Tue Jul 15 07:49:11 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <20080711153419.GA22250@cs.cmu.edu> <487B2494.90804@gmail.com> <0ucm74ltnl9k24agm0du7fb0gnk4q8jesf@4ax.com> <487B48EF.60206@daimi.au.dk> Message-ID: <79d7c4980807150458i2600053dq7261c26b585124c7@mail.gmail.com> 2008/7/15 Benjamin L. Russell : > > Then I looked through the list of mailing list names at haskell.org > (see "haskell.org Mailing Lists" at > http://haskell.org/mailman/listinfo), and discovered that there seems > to be a kind of pattern where names that do not begin with "haskell" > seem to be devoted to specific compilers/tools/packages/etc. not > concerning general Haskell, whereas names that do seem to be devoted > to general Haskell issues. I don't think there's much of a pattern, and the haskell-i18n list is a good counter-example. haskell-cafe could just as easily have been cafe; there's no real need for the haskell- prefix. All of the lists are @haskell.org, so there's redundancy in the prefix. IMO, the only lists that need a prefix are haskell-fr, haskell-prime, and haskell. And even haskell could be renamed to announce. You yourself expressed concern over the length of the address haskell-beginners@haskell.org. My vote is still for beginners@haskell.org Alistair From rendel at daimi.au.dk Tue Jul 15 08:39:51 2008 From: rendel at daimi.au.dk (Tillmann Rendel) Date: Tue Jul 15 08:30:25 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <79d7c4980807150458i2600053dq7261c26b585124c7@mail.gmail.com> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <20080711153419.GA22250@cs.cmu.edu> <487B2494.90804@gmail.com> <0ucm74ltnl9k24agm0du7fb0gnk4q8jesf@4ax.com> <487B48EF.60206@daimi.au.dk> <79d7c4980807150458i2600053dq7261c26b585124c7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <487C9A97.1070904@daimi.au.dk> Alistair Bayley wrote: > haskell-cafe could just as easily have been cafe; there's no real need > for the haskell- prefix. All of the lists are @haskell.org, so there's > redundancy in the prefix. IMO, the only lists that need a prefix are > haskell-fr, haskell-prime, and haskell. And even haskell could be > renamed to announce. While the email addresses used to run the list would be sensible with beginners@haskell.org etc., the tag inserted into Subject:-lines should still contain "Haskell" to avoid confusion with beginners list for other subjects. Maybe "beginners@haskell.org" with a "[Haskell beginners]" tag would work, if that is possible. I see various patterns for the name of mailing lists: (1) discussed topic as in haskell-art (2) style of communication as in haskell-cafe (3) target audience as in ghc-users While (1) and (2) assume that members of the community decide for every posting where to send it to, (3) assumes that every member of the community picks a single mailing list to belong to. Personally, I find this mix of posting-based and poster-based association confusing, and would prefer to have only names of type (1). E.g., I don't understand the idea of the "ghc-users" mailing list: I'm a ghc user, so should I ask questions about Haskell in haskell-cafe or in ghc-users? Probably in haskell-cafe, except my question is about ghc-specifics. So why is ghc-users not named ghc-specific? But for beginners, a poster-based association may be easier to manage: A beginner knows that he or she is a beginner, but may not know which topic a question belongs to. (And may not be willing to select an appropriate mailing list for every new posting). Tillmann From ketil at malde.org Tue Jul 15 17:23:41 2008 From: ketil at malde.org (Ketil Malde) Date: Tue Jul 15 17:13:20 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <005a01c8e5a4$341e7e30$9c5b7a90$@be> (Peter Verswyvelen's message of "Mon\, 14 Jul 2008 13\:24\:36 +0200") References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <20080711153419.GA22250@cs.cmu.edu> <487B2494.90804@gmail.com> <0ucm74ltnl9k24agm0du7fb0gnk4q8jesf@4ax.com> <005a01c8e5a4$341e7e30$9c5b7a90$@be> Message-ID: <87iqv6rgde.fsf@malde.org> "Peter Verswyvelen" writes: > Well, if somebody can't spell "beginners" correctly, I highly doubt they > will get "alpha" right... Certainly if they drive an Alfa Romeo car ;) For the beginning Haskell programmer owning an Italian sports car, I cannot resist suggesting "alpha-mail@haskell.org"... -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants From ketil at malde.org Tue Jul 15 17:38:03 2008 From: ketil at malde.org (Ketil Malde) Date: Tue Jul 15 17:27:37 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: (Benjamin L. Russell's message of "Tue\, 15 Jul 2008 17\:49\:41 +0900") References: <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <20080711153419.GA22250@cs.cmu.edu> <487B2494.90804@gmail.com> <0ucm74ltnl9k24agm0du7fb0gnk4q8jesf@4ax.com> <010001c8e5b5$90f0a370$743b8351@cr3lt> <7b3601c8e64b$dbfd5ed0$743b8351@cr3lt> Message-ID: <87ej5urfpg.fsf@malde.org> Benjamin L.Russell writes: > In that case, how about the following, more detailed charter: > "Beginner-level discussion about primarily non-research-oriented > topics This part is good. Friendly and inviting - nothing scary here. > serving the needs of non-computer-science students of Haskell > wishing to focus on Haskell as a language for learning programming as > part of a well-rounded liberal arts education" .. but I don't quite understand the rationale for this. Why the restrictions? It seems strange to me to have a list named "beginners", but disallow e.g. comp.sci. students or people learning Haskell as a non-first language. But perhaps I misunderstood the intended purpose? -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants From pat at jantar.org Tue Jul 15 18:13:37 2008 From: pat at jantar.org (Patryk Zadarnowski) Date: Tue Jul 15 18:04:08 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <87ej5urfpg.fsf@malde.org> References: <4873C23A.7090003@yale.edu> <125EACD0CAE4D24ABDB4D148C4593DA9049E94A9@GBLONXMB02.corp.amvescap.net> <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <20080711153419.GA22250@cs.cmu.edu> <487B2494.90804@gmail.com> <0ucm74ltnl9k24agm0du7fb0gnk4q8jesf@4ax.com> <010001c8e5b5$90f0a370$743b8351@cr3lt> <7b3601c8e64b$dbfd5ed0$743b8351@cr3lt> <87ej5urfpg.fsf@malde.org> Message-ID: Ok, this is getting tedious guys. How about the following course of action: 1. Start "beginners@haskell.org" now. There seems to be more-or-less a consensus on this name. 2. Take all further discussion about the list's charter, etc. to the new list. 3. If decision is made to rename the list, kill "beginners@haskell.org", create the new list and repeat with step 1. Cheers, Pat. On 16/07/2008, at 7:38 AM, Ketil Malde wrote: > Benjamin L.Russell writes: > >> In that case, how about the following, more detailed charter: > >> "Beginner-level discussion about primarily non-research-oriented >> topics > > This part is good. Friendly and inviting - nothing scary here. > >> serving the needs of non-computer-science students of Haskell >> wishing to focus on Haskell as a language for learning programming as >> part of a well-rounded liberal arts education" > > .. but I don't quite understand the rationale for this. Why the > restrictions? It seems strange to me to have a list named > "beginners", but disallow e.g. comp.sci. students or people learning > Haskell as a non-first language. > > But perhaps I misunderstood the intended purpose? > > -k > -- > If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of > giants > _______________________________________________ > Haskell mailing list > Haskell@haskell.org > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell From DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 22:29:53 2008 From: DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com (Benjamin L.Russell) Date: Tue Jul 15 22:20:24 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list References: <48777888.4050605@gmail.com> <20080711153419.GA22250@cs.cmu.edu> <487B2494.90804@gmail.com> <0ucm74ltnl9k24agm0du7fb0gnk4q8jesf@4ax.com> <010001c8e5b5$90f0a370$743b8351@cr3lt> <7b3601c8e64b$dbfd5ed0$743b8351@cr3lt> <87ej5urfpg.fsf@malde.org> Message-ID: <67nq74lsldqnrecvl2ovjhib1n9ekqla9r@4ax.com> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 08:13:37 +1000, Patryk Zadarnowski wrote: >Ok, this is getting tedious guys. > >How about the following course of action: > >1. Start "beginners@haskell.org" now. There seems to be more-or-less a >consensus on this name. > >2. Take all further discussion about the list's charter, etc. to the >new list. > >3. If decision is made to rename the list, kill >"beginners@haskell.org", create the new list > and repeat with step 1. Agreed; I think so, too. I'll send out the suggestion to Simon right away. -- Benjamin L. Russell From jstrait at moonloop.net Wed Jul 16 01:16:57 2008 From: jstrait at moonloop.net (Jon Strait) Date: Wed Jul 16 01:18:00 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Launching Haskell Group in Vancouver, Canada Message-ID: <487D8449.2030103@moonloop.net> For those in Vancouver, a short announcement about the recently created Haskell Programmers Group and a meeting scheduled for next Monday, July 21st. http://groups.google.com/group/hugvan Future group announcements will be posted on this Google Groups site, so feel free to join the group list to be notified of future events or just show up to a meeting to bounce ideas and questions off of other Haskell programmers. Thanks, Jon From byorgey at seas.upenn.edu Wed Jul 16 16:13:54 2008 From: byorgey at seas.upenn.edu (Brent Yorgey) Date: Wed Jul 16 16:04:17 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 77 - July 16, 2008 Message-ID: <20080716201354.GA5713@plus.seas.upenn.edu> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Haskell Weekly News http://sequence.complete.org/hwn/20080716 Issue 77 - July 16, 2008 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome to issue 77 of HWN, a newsletter covering developments in the [1]Haskell community. Announcements Takusen 0.8.3. Alistair Bayley [2]announced the release of [3]Takusen 0.8.3, with ODBC support, more Cabal improvements, bug fixes, and some basic result-set validation. Launching Haskell Group in Vancouver, Canada. Jon Strait [4]announced that a [5]Haskell Programmers Group has been created in Vancouver; the first meeting is scheduled for next Monday, July 21st. Feel free to join the Google Groups list to be notified of future events, or just show up to a meeting to bounce ideas and questions off of other Haskell programmers. Sphinx full-text searching client on Hackage. Chris Eidhof [6]announced work on a [7]client for the [8]sphinx full-text search engine. Help hacking on it, testing it or improving documentation is welcome. haskell-src-exts 0.3.5. Niklas Broberg [9]announced that the [10]haskell-src-exts package is now updated to understand the current version of Template Haskell syntax. Bug reports welcome. Prime time for Haskell. Janis Voigtlaender [11]announced that Haskell STM is featured in an [12]article in this month's Communications of the ACM. vector 0.1 (efficient arrays with lots of fusion). Roman Leshchinskiy [13]announced an initial release of the [14]vector library, which will eventually provide fast, Int-indexed arrays with a powerful fusion framework. Galois Tech Talks: Stream Fusion for Haskell Arrays. Don Stewart [15]announced that he was giving this week's Galois Tech Talk, on stream fusion for Haskell arrays. The talk was yesterday, July 15, but hopefully some sort of recording or slides will be made available. protocol-buffers. Chris Kuklewicz [16]announced a very early version of the [17]protocol-buffers package, a Haskell interface to Google's newly released [18]data interchange format. GHC IRC meeting. Simon Marlow [19]announced the (first weekly?) IRC meeting to discuss GHC, a scheduled time when the developers turn up on #ghc, discuss current topics around GHC, and users can chime in with questions, points for discussion, complaints and so on. The first meeting took place on July 16 at 1600 BST (UTC +1)/0800 PDT (UTC-7)/1100 EDT (UTC-4), in the #ghc channel on chat.freenode.net; hopefully this will become a weekly event. Google Summer of Code Progress updates from participants in the 2008 [20]Google Summer of Code. GHC API. Thomas Schilling (nominolo) is working on [21]improvements to the GHC API. He recently [22]asked for comments on a proposed refactoring to the GHC API, creating a new Ghc monad to capture error handling and single-threaded use of Sessions. GHC plugins. Max Bolingbroke is working on dynamically loaded plugins for GHC. [23]This week, he wrote a ton of Haddock documentation for GHC internals. He also added the ability for compiler plugins to generate their own source annotations, to allow plugins to use intermediate results from previous plugins. He's currently working on an exciting, secret feature: tune in next week to find out what it is! Generic tries. Jamie Brandon is working on a library for efficient maps using generalized tries. Jamie is [24]currently working on, tweaking the [25]api, writing tests and writing reference implementations on sorted and unsorted association lists. Hoogle 4. Neil Mitchell (ndm) is working on [26]Hoogle 4. [27]This week, he worked on type search and database generation. Next week he plans to finish up type search and release and command-line version. Language.C. Benedikt Huber (visq) is [28]working on Language.C, a standalone parser/pretty printer library for C99. DPH physics engine. Roman Cheplyaka (Feuerbach) is working on a [29]physics engine using [30]Data Parallel Haskell. Cabal dependency framework. Andrea Vezzosi (Saizan) is working on a [31]make-like dependency analysis framework for Cabal. Libraries Proposals and extensions to the [32]standard libraries. adding split to Data.List. Gwern Branwen [33]proposed adding some split-like functions to Data.List. Will they actually get added this time? Will people be able to agree on one of the seventeen possible sets of semantics? Tune in next time... Discussion GHC API: monad and error handling. Thomas Schilling [34]asked for comments on a proposed refactoring to the GHC API, creating a new Ghc monad to capture error handling and single-threaded use of Sessions. Jobs Research positions on Modeling and Analyzing Software Adaptation, University of Koblenz. Ralf Lammel [35]announced two research positions for a postdoc and a PhD student, available initially for 2 years. The successful applicants will work on the research theme of "ADAPT: Modeling and Analyzing Software Adaptation". The objective of [36]ADAPT is to relate, advance, combine, and challenge adaptation methods and associated methods of modeling and analyzing that are used by the communities of software engineering, programming languages, logic-based modeling, multi-agent systems, formal methods, SOA, web systems, and mobile, autonomous systems. Blog noise [37]Haskell news from the [38]blogosphere. * Real-World Haskell: [39]Real World Haskellers at OSCON next week. John Goerzen and Bryan O'Sullivan will be in Portland, Oregon next week for OSCON (along with Don Stewart, who lives in Portland). * Russell O'Connor: [40]ICFP 2008 Post-Mortem. * Brent Yorgey: [41]Call for an ICFP Mars Server. Will someone make a Mars Server where we can all submit our rovers and new maps, watch them compete, improve them, and generally have fun getting some feedback without bugging the organizing committee? Pretty please? * Jamie Brandon: [42]Week 5 progress. An update on Jamie's Google Summer of Code project. * Brent Yorgey: [43]ICFP programming contest reflections. * >>> Chris Bogart: [44]Help with study of functional programmers. Chris is doing a study as part of a research internship at Microsoft, and is seeking people currently working on a real project in a functional language whom he can observe as part of his study. * >>> eigenclass: [45]Quicksort erratum. A time and space analysis of a classic quicksort implementation in Haskell. * Ralf Lammel: [46]Research positions on Modeling and Analyzing Software Adaptation, University of Koblenz. * Max Bolingbroke: [47]Compiler Plugins For GHC: Week Five. An update on Max's Google Summer of Code project. * Luke Plant: [48]Haskell Blog Rewrite - Session 7. Luke documents setting up CentOS in VirtualBox VM in order to compile Haskell code for a server to which he does not have ssh access. Not for the faint of heart. * Chris Eidhof: [49]Stemming with Haskell. A [50]stemming library and [51]Sphinx client for Haskell. * >>> Duane Johnson: [52]Haskell is Popular on IRC. The large amount of community participation and academic brainshare gives Duane a lot of confidence in Haskell. * >>> Mike Harris: [53]ICFP Programming Contest '08. Mike participated in the ICFP programming contest, and might try porting his solution to Haskell. * Luke Palmer: [54]The Curry-Howard isomorphism and the duality of x and ->. * Magnus Therning: [55]Playing with prefixes. Magnus explores different ways to encode units of storage (bytes, kilobytes, kibibytes...) in Haskell. * Dan Piponi (sigfpe): [56]MSFP 2008. * Shin-Cheng Mu: [57]Tail-Recursive, Linear-Time Fibonacci. * Neil Mitchell: [58]GSoC Hoogle: Week 7. * FP Lunch: [59]CCC-ness of the category of containers. * JP Moresmau: [60]instance Data Map where -- half done!. JP writes an Data.Generics.Data instance for Data.Map. * >>> Rick Carback: [61]AutoKey in Haskell. Rick is learning Haskell and has implemented a simple AutoKey cipher. * >>> Jeremy Frens: [62]PE Problem #2 in All Languages (Part II). * Luke Palmer: [63]Required Optimization. Annotations for specifying expected compiler optimizations? * London Haskell Users Group: [64]AngloHaskell 2008. * >>> Justus: [65]random programming. Solving a simple programming challenge in Haskell. Quotes of the Week * Japsu: segfault cat is watching you unsafeCoerce * z0MB13: who can say hello to me as a md5 or decipher what kind of technique can be used to remove the password * denq: [upon experiencing a moment of enlightenment] oh! something bing in my brain :) * Pseudonym: Pseudonym needs codependent types - useful when you're doing dysfunctional programming. About the Haskell Weekly News New editions are posted to [66]the Haskell mailing list as well as to [67]the Haskell Sequence and [68]Planet Haskell. [69]RSS is also available, and headlines appear on [70]haskell.org. Headlines are available as [71]PDF. To help create new editions of this newsletter, please see the information on [72]how to contribute. Send stories to byorgey at seas dot upenn dot edu. The darcs repository is available at darcs get [73]http://code.haskell.org/~byorgey/code/hwn/ . References 1. http://haskell.org/ 2. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.libraries/9570 3. http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/Takusen/0.8.3/Takusen-0.8.3.tar.gz 4. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/42287 5. http://groups.google.com/group/hugvan 6. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/42263 7. http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/sphinx 8. http://www.sphinxsearch.com/ 9. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/42233 10. http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/haskell-src-exts 11. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/42227 12. http://research.microsoft.com/~larus/Papers/p80-larus.pdf 13. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/42207 14. http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/vector 15. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/42196 16. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.libraries/9575 17. http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/protocol-buffers 18. http://code.google.com/apis/protocolbuffers/docs/overview.html 19. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.glasgow.user/14741 20. http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/summer-of-code/wiki/SoC2008 21. http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/GhcApiStatus 22. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.libraries/9589 23. http://blog.omega-prime.co.uk/?p=69 24. http://jamiiecb.blogspot.com/2008/07/week-5-progress.html 25. http://code.haskell.org/gmap/api 26. http://code.haskell.org/hoogle/ 27. http://neilmitchell.blogspot.com/2008/07/gsoc-hoogle-week-7.html 28. http://www.sivity.net/projects/language.c/wiki/ 29. http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Hpysics 30. http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/GHC/Data_Parallel_Haskell 31. http://code.haskell.org/~Saizan/cabal 32. http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Library_submissions 33. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.libraries/9558 34. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.libraries/9589 35. http://blogs.msdn.com/ralflammel/archive/2008/07/15/research-positions-on-modeling-and-analyzing-software-adaptation-university-of-koblenz.aspx 36. http://adapt.uni-koblenz.de/ 37. http://planet.haskell.org/ 38. http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Blog_articles 39. http://www.realworldhaskell.org/blog/2008/07/16/real-world-haskellers-at-oscon-next-week/ 40. http://r6.ca/blog/20080716T131235Z.html 41. http://byorgey.wordpress.com/2008/07/16/call-for-an-icfp-mars-server/ 42. http://jamiiecb.blogspot.com/2008/07/week-5-progress.html 43. http://byorgey.wordpress.com/2008/07/15/icfp-programming-contest-reflections/ 44. http://sambangu.blogspot.com/2008/07/help-with-study-of-functional 45. http://eigenclass.org/hiki/quicksort-erratum 46. http://blogs.msdn.com/ralflammel/archive/2008/07/15/research-positions-on-modeling-and-analyzing-software-adaptation-university-of-koblenz.aspx 47. http://blog.omega-prime.co.uk/2008/07/14/compiler-plugins-for-ghc-week-five/ 48. http://lukeplant.me.uk/blog.php?id=1107301689 49. http://blog.tupil.com/stemming-with-haskell/ 50. http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/stemmer 51. http://www.sphinxsearch.com/ 52. http://blog.inquirylabs.com/2008/07/14/haskell-is-popular-on-irc/ 53. http://thingsthatmikethinks.blogspot.com/2008/07/icfp-programming-contest-08.html 54. http://luqui.org/blog/archives/2008/07/13/ch-isomorphism-duality/ 55. http://therning.org/magnus/archives/354 56. http://sigfpe.blogspot.com/2008/07/msfp-2008.html 57. http://www.iis.sinica.edu.tw/~scm/2008/tail-recursive-linear-time-fibonacci/ 58. http://neilmitchell.blogspot.com/2008/07/gsoc-hoogle-week-7.html 59. http://sneezy.cs.nott.ac.uk/fplunch/weblog/?p=108 60. http://jpmoresmau.blogspot.com/2008/07/instance-data-map-where-half-done.html 61. http://carback.us/rick/blog/?p=24 62. http://jdfrens.blogspot.com/2008/07/pe-problem-2-in-all-languages-part-ii.html 63. http://luqui.org/blog/archives/2008/07/10/required-optimization/ 64. http://www.londonhug.net/2008/07/10/anglohaskell-2008/ 65. http://hoostus.blogspot.com/2008/07/random-programming.html 66. http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell 67. http://sequence.complete.org/ 68. http://planet.haskell.org/ 69. http://sequence.complete.org/node/feed 70. http://haskell.org/ 71. http://code.haskell.org/~byorgey/code/hwn/archives/20080716.pdf 72. http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/HWN 73. http://code.haskell.org/~byorgey/code/hwn/ From judah.jacobson at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 21:44:26 2008 From: judah.jacobson at gmail.com (Judah Jacobson) Date: Wed Jul 16 21:34:46 2008 Subject: [Haskell] ANN: Haskeline 0.2 Message-ID: <6d74b0d20807161844q756b8efeh531c3705295f9c@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, This is to announce the initial (alpha-ish) release of Haskeline, a library for line input in command-line programs. It is similar in purpose to editline or readline, but is written in Haskell and thus (hopefully) more easily used in other Haskell programs. === Links === Hackage: http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/haskeline Development repo: darcs get http://code.haskell.org/haskeline Bug tracking: http://trac.haskell.org/haskeline === Features === - Runs on POSIX-compatible systems, including non-ANSI terminals. - Runs on the native Windows APIs using MinGW (Cygwin support is TODO). - Supports Unicode cross-platform (POSIX is only UTF-8, for now). - Provides a rich user interface, supporting both Emacs and Vi edit modes and customizable in a ~/.haskeline file. - Implements history recall and incremental search. - Allows custom tab completion functions which run in an arbitrary monad. -Judah From ppdp08-cfp at clip.dia.fi.upm.es Thu Jul 17 04:42:24 2008 From: ppdp08-cfp at clip.dia.fi.upm.es (WLPE-08) Date: Thu Jul 17 04:33:11 2008 Subject: [Haskell] WLPE'08 - First call for Papers Message-ID: WLPE'08 -- Call for Papers The 18th Workshop on Logic-based methods in Programming Environments http://www.clip.dia.fi.upm.es/Conferences/WLPE08/ December 9th-13th 2008, Udine, Italy (Satellite Workshop of ICLP 2008) The 18th Workshop on Logic-based methods in Programming Environments will take place in Udine (Italy), as a satellite workshop of ICLP 2008, the 24th International Conference on Logic Programming. This workshop will continue the series of successful international workshops on logic programming environments held in Ohio, USA (1989), Eilat, Israel (1990), Paris, France (1991), Washington D.C., USA (1992), Vancouver, Canada (1993), Santa Margherita Ligure, Italy (1994), Portland, USA (1995), Leuven, Belgium (1997), Las Cruces, USA (1999), Paphos, Cyprus (2001), Copenhagen, Denmark (2002), Mumbai, India (2003), Saint Malo, France (2004), Sitges (Barcelona), Spain (2005), Seattle, USA (2006) and Porto, Portugal (2007). More information about the series of WLPE workshops can be found at http://www.cs.usask.ca/projects/envlop/WLPE/ The workshop aims at providing an informal meeting for researchers working on logic-based methods and tools which support program development and analysis. This year, we plan to continue and consolidate the shift in focus from environmental tools for logic programming to logic-based environmental tools for programming in general, so that this workshop can be possibly interesting for a wider scientific community. In addition to papers describing more conceptual and theoretical work, the call for papers will solicit papers describing the implementation of, and the experience with, such tools. Areas particularly relevant to the workshop include (but are not limited to): - static and dynamic analysis - debugging and testing - program verification and validation - code generation from specifications - termination and non-termination analysis - reasoning on occurs-check freeness and determinacy - profiling and performance analysis - type- and mode analysis - module systems - optimization tools Authors who are interested in taking part in the workshop, but are unsure if their work falls within its scope, are invited to contact the organizers and will be given suitable advice. Workshop Organizers ------------------- Puri Arenas Facultad de Informatica Universidad Complutense de Madrid 28040-Madrid, Spain Email: puri@sip.ucm.es Phone: +34 91 394 76 33 Fax: +34 91 336 50 18 http://www.clip.dia.fi.upm.es/puri Damiano Zanardini Facultad de Informatica Universidad Polit????cnica de Madrid 28660-Boadilla del Monte, Madrid, Spain Email: damiano@clip.dia.fi.upm.es Phone: +34 91 336 74 48 Fax: +34 91 394 75 29 http://www.clip.dia.fi.upm.es/damiano Program Committee ----------------- - Puri Arenas, Universidad Complutense de Madrid (ws co-chair) - Michael Codish, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev - Roberta Gori, Universita di Pisa - Arnaud Gotlieb, IRISA/CNRS UMR 6074 - Patricia Hill, University of Leeds - Jacob Howe, City University, London - Sabina Rossi, Universita Ca' Foscari di Venezia - Tom Schrijvers, K.U.Leuven - Alexander Serebrenik, Technische Universiteit Eindhoven - Wim Vanhoof, University of Namur - German Vidal, Universidad Politecnica de Valencia - Damiano Zanardini, Universidad Politecnica de Madrid,(ws co-chair) Important Dates --------------- Submission: September 15th, 2008 (23:59:59 Samoa time (GMT -11)) Notification: October 8th, 2008 Camera-ready: October 26th, 2008 Workshop: TBA (probably Dec 9th or Dec 13th, half-day) Submission ---------- Papers should be submitted to http://www.easychair.org/conferences/?conf=wlpe2008 The length of papers can range from 2 to 15 pages in LNCS style. Informal proceedings will be distributed at the workshop. After the workshop, proceedings will be available on-line in the Computing Research Repository (CoRR). In addition to papers describing conceptual and theoretical work, papers describing the implementation of and the experience with tools are welcome. From DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com Thu Jul 17 08:25:54 2008 From: DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com (Benjamin L.Russell) Date: Thu Jul 17 08:16:24 2008 Subject: [Haskell] ANN: The Haskell-Beginners Mailing List (beginners@haskell.org) Message-ID: <5eeu74hdrajes6p1dgrf19jm7k0oeu5ffq@4ax.com> On behalf of the many, many contributors to the thread "on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list," I am pleased to announce that The Haskell-Beginners Mailing List Discussion of primarily beginner-level topics related to Haskell beginners@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners has been launched, and is awaiting contributions from readers. This mailing list is for primarily beginner-level discussion about topics related to Haskell. Feel free to ask beginner-level questions, or to discuss beginner-level topics, related to Haskell here. Please don't cross-post to both Haskell and Haskell-Beginners. A brief list of navigational links follows: To subscribe, visit: Beginners Info Page http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners To browse, visit: The Beginners Archives http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/beginners/ To use via Gmane, visit: Gmane -- Mail To News And Back Again -- Information about gmane.comp.lang.haskell.beginners http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.beginners I hope that Haskell-Beginners will be of service to you, and that your time and effort on this list will prove meaningful. May the Lambda-Force of Haskell be with you! Many thanks go to all the people who have contributed to the creation of this mailing list, both directly, by sending in comments and suggestions, and indirectly, by asking beginner questions and discussing beginner topics on Haskell-Cafe. I hope that you will enjoy it as much as I will. -- Benjamin L. Russell From jason.dusek at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 00:30:50 2008 From: jason.dusek at gmail.com (Jason Dusek) Date: Fri Jul 18 00:21:08 2008 Subject: [Haskell] ANN: Haskeline 0.2 In-Reply-To: <6d74b0d20807161844q756b8efeh531c3705295f9c@mail.gmail.com> References: <6d74b0d20807161844q756b8efeh531c3705295f9c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42784f260807172130k59cf424du922eb60530958a5d@mail.gmail.com> Thanks! -- _jsn From lgreg.meredith at biosimilarity.com Fri Jul 18 20:25:35 2008 From: lgreg.meredith at biosimilarity.com (Greg Meredith) Date: Fri Jul 18 20:15:54 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Fwd: NW Functional Programming Interest Group In-Reply-To: <5de3f5ca0802011155l771cc649wa0e671bbe3abe364@mail.gmail.com> References: <5de3f5ca0802011155l771cc649wa0e671bbe3abe364@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5de3f5ca0807181725x36139c55gbd64f479688066ee@mail.gmail.com> All, Apologies for multiple listings. This is just a friendly reminder to Northwest functionally minded folks that this month's meeting is to be held The Seattle Public Library 5009 Roosevelt Way N.E. Seattle, WA 98105 206-684-4063 from 18.30 - 19:45 on July 23rd. We'll be getting a demo of a scala-lift-based application that compiles a graphical rendition of functional expressions into expressions in a functional language. Hope to see you there. Monadically yours, --greg -- L.G. Meredith Managing Partner Biosimilarity LLC 806 55th St NE Seattle, WA 98105 +1 206.650.3740 http://biosimilarity.blogspot.com -- L.G. Meredith Managing Partner Biosimilarity LLC 806 55th St NE Seattle, WA 98105 +1 206.650.3740 http://biosimilarity.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell/attachments/20080718/612affd7/attachment.htm From adams-moran at galois.com Tue Jul 22 14:54:21 2008 From: adams-moran at galois.com (Andy Adams-Moran) Date: Tue Jul 22 14:44:28 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Commercial Users of Functional Programming Workshop Call for Participation Message-ID: <48862CDD.3080608@galois.com> Commercial Users of Functional Programming Workshop (CUFP) 2008 Functional Programming As a Means, Not an End Call for Participation Sponsored by SIGPLAN Co-located with ICFP 2008 __________________________________________________________________ 26 September 2008 Victoria, Canada Registration opens in late July through http://www.icfpconference.org/icfp2008/ __________________________________________________________________ Functional languages have been under academic development for over 25 years, and remain fertile ground for programming language research. Recently, however, developers in industrial, governmental, and open source projects have begun to use functional programming successfully in practical applications. In these settings, functional programming has often provided dramatic leverage, including whole new ways of thinking about the original problem. The goal of the CUFP workshop is to act as a voice for these users of functional programming. The workshop supports the increasing viability of functional programming in the commercial, governmental, and open-source space by providing a forum for professionals to share their experiences and ideas, whether those ideas are related to business, management, or engineering. The workshop is also designed to enable the formation and reinforcement of relationships that further the commercial use of functional programming. Providing user feedback to language designers and implementors is not a primary goal of the workshop, though it will be welcome if it occurs. Program CUFP 2008 will last a full day and feature a discussion session and the following presentations: Don Syme (Microsoft) Invited Presentation: Why Microsoft is Investing in Functional Programming David Balaban (Amgen) Minimizing the Immune Response to Functional Programming at Amgen Francesco Cesarini (Erlang Training and Consulting) The Mobile Messaging Gateway, from Idea to Prototype to Launch in 12 months Jake Donham (Skydeck) From OCaml to Javascript at Skydeck Nick Gerakines (Yahoo) Developing Erlang at Yahoo Tom Hawkins (Eaton Corporation) Controlling Hybrid Vehicles with Haskell Bob Ippolito (Mochimedia) Ad Serving with Erlang Anil Madhavapeddy (Citrix) Xen and the art of OCaml Howard Mansell (Credit Suisse) Quantitative Finance in F# Jeff Polakow (Deutsche Bank) Is Haskell ready for everyday computing? David Pollak (Lift web framework) Buy a Feature: an adventure in immutability and Actors Gregory Wright (Antiope) Functions to Junctions: Ultra Low Power Chip Design With Some Help From Haskell There will be no published proceedings, as the meeting is intended to be more a discussion forum than a technical interchange. See http://cufp.galois.com for more information, including presentation abstracts and the most recent schedule information. Program Committee * Lennart Augustsson * Matthias Blume * Adam Granicz * Jim Grundy(co-chair) * Andy Martin * Yaron Minsky * Simon Peyton Jones(co-chair) * Ulf Wiger This will be the fifth CUFP; see CUFP 2004 CUFP 2005, CUFP 2006, and CUFP 2007 for information about the earlier meetings, including reports from attendees and video of the most recent talks. -- Andy Adams-Moran Phone: 503.626.6616, x113 Galois Fax: 503.214.8120 421 SW 6th Ave, Suite #300 http://www.galois.com Portland, OR 97204 adams-moran@galois.com From t.h at gmx.info Wed Jul 23 05:04:02 2008 From: t.h at gmx.info (Timo B. =?utf-8?q?H=C3=BCbel?=) Date: Wed Jul 23 04:54:37 2008 Subject: [Haskell] ANN: Hayoo! beta 0.2 Message-ID: <200807231104.03210.t.h@gmx.info> Hello, we are pleased to announce the second beta release of Hayoo!, a Haskell API search engine providing advanced features like suggestions, find-as-you-type, fuzzy queries and much more. Visit Hayoo! here: http://holumbus.fh-wedel.de/hayoo The major change is the inclusion of all packages available on Hackage, i.e. the documentation of the latest versions of all packages is included in the index. Unfortunately we had to drop the direct links to the source code, as the documentation on Hackage is currently generated without source code. But as soon as this changes, we will include these links again. Additionally, we added some tweaks to the interface which make the browser history/the back button work (at least in Firefox). Please bear in mind that this is still a beta release and we are continuously working on further improvements. Any suggestions and feedback is highly welcomed. Cheers, Timo & Sebastian From duncan.coutts at worc.ox.ac.uk Wed Jul 23 11:52:13 2008 From: duncan.coutts at worc.ox.ac.uk (Duncan Coutts) Date: Wed Jul 23 11:41:01 2008 Subject: [Haskell] ANNOUNCE: Sun Microsystems and Haskell.org joint project on OpenSPARC Message-ID: <1216828333.12754.30.camel@localhost> http://haskell.org/opensparc/ I am very pleased to announce a joint project between Sun Microsystems and the Haskell.org community to exploit the high performance capabilities of Sun's latest multi-core OpenSPARC systems via Haskell! http://opensparc.net/ Sun has donated a powerful 8 core SPARC Enterprise T5120 Server to the Haskell community, and $10,000 to fund a student, to further develop support for high performance Haskell on the SPARC. The aim of the project is to improve the SPARC native code generator in GHC and to demonstrate and improve the results of parallel Haskell benchmarks. The student will work with a mentor from Haskell.org and an adviser from Sun's SPARC compiler team. ** We are now inviting applications from students ** Please forward this announcement to any and all mailing lists where you think interested students might be lurking. Further details for students may be found below, and on the project website. Haskell and Multi-core Systems ------------------------------ The latest generation of multi-core machines pose a number of problems for traditional languages and parallel programming techniques. Haskell, in contrast, supports a wealth of approaches for writing correct parallel programs: traditional explicit threads and locks (forkIO and MVars), pure parallel evaluation strategies (par) and also Software Transactional Memory (STM). GHC has supported lightweight preemptable threads for a long time, and for the last couple of years it has been able to take advantage of machines with multiple CPUs or CPU cores. The GHC runtime has also recently gained a parallel garbage collector. OpenSPARC --------- We think the UltraSPARC T1/T2 architecture is a very interesting platform for Haskell. In particular the way that each core multiplexes many threads as a way of hiding memory latency. Memory latency is a performance bottleneck for Haskell code because the execution model uses a lot of memory indirections. Essentially, when one thread blocks due to a main memory read, the next thread is able to continue. This is in contrast to traditional architectures where the CPU core would stall until the result of the memory read was available. This approach can achieve high utilisation as long as there is enough parallelism available. The Project ----------- GHC is increasingly relying on its native code backend for high performance. Respectable single-threaded performance is a prerequisite for decent parallel performance. The first stage of the project therefore is to implement a new SPARC native code generator, taking advantage of the recent and ongoing infrastructure improvements in the C-- and native layers of the GHC backend. There is some existing support for SPARC in the native code generator but it has not kept up with changes in the GHC backend in the last few years. Once the code generator is working we will want to get a range of single threaded and parallel benchmarks running and look for various opportunities for improvement. There is plenty of ongoing work on the generic parts of the GHC backend and run-time system so the project will focus on SPARC-specific aspects. The UltraSPARC T1/T2 architecture supports very fast thread synchronisation (by taking advantage of the fact that all threads share the same L2 cache). We would like to optimise the synchronisation primitives in the GHC libraries and run-time system to take advantage of this. This should provide the basis for exploring whether the lower synchronisation costs make it advantageous to use more fine-grained parallelism. The Server ---------- The T5120 server has a T2 UltraSPARC processor with 8 cores running at 1.2GHz. Each core multiplexes 8 threads giving 64 hardware threads overall. It comes equipped with 32GB of memory. It also has two 146GB 10k RPM SAS disks. http://www.sun.com/servers/coolthreads/t5120/ http://www.sun.com/processors/UltraSPARC-T2/ This server is a donation to the whole Haskell community. We will make accounts available on the same basis as the existing community server as soon as is practical. Our friends at Chalmers University of Technology are kindly hosting the server on our behalf. We will encourage people to use the server for building, testing and benchmarking their Haskell software on SPARC, under both Solaris and Linux. Student applications -------------------- This is a challenging and exciting project and will need a high calibre student. Familiarity with Haskell is obviously important as is some experience with code generation for RISC instruction sets. The summer is now upon us so we do not expect students to be able to work 3 months all in one go. We are inviting students to suggest their own schedule when they apply. This may involve blocks of time in the next 9 months or so. It should add up to the equivalent of 3 months full time work. The application process is relatively informal. Students should send their application to: opensparc@community.haskell.org The deadline for applications in Friday 5th September 2008. If that deadline likely to be a problem for you then do get in touch. The application should detail skills and experience. Applications will be reviewed by a panel including the mentor, the adviser from Sun and a number of other Haskell.org community members who have helped with reviewing student projects in the past. The review will be partly interactive; students can expect to get questions and feedback from the reviewers. Students are welcome to contact myself or anyone else to help improve the quality of their application or if they have any questions. The $10k student funding will be paid in three phases, at the beginning ($3k), an intermediate point ($3k) and at the end ($4k). The exact timing will depend on the agreed schedule. The intermediate and final payments will be subject to positive reviews from the mentor. Duncan (project coordinator) From byorgey at seas.upenn.edu Wed Jul 23 16:13:45 2008 From: byorgey at seas.upenn.edu (Brent Yorgey) Date: Wed Jul 23 16:03:49 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 78 - July 23, 2008 Message-ID: <20080723201344.GA29302@minus.seas.upenn.edu> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Haskell Weekly News http://sequence.complete.org/hwn/20080723 Issue 78 - July 23, 2008 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome to issue 78 of HWN, a newsletter covering developments in the [1]Haskell community. Issue 78: In Which Michi and Neil Become Doctors, Sun Donates Some Sweet Loot, and Jules Is Revealed To Be A Helpful Anthropomorphic Robot Community News Congratulations are in order this week to two members of the community who have completed PhDs. Neil Mitchell (ndm) passed his PhD viva last week, subject to minor corrections. Mikael Johansson (Syzygy-) [2]has also completed his PhD and will soon be starting a postdoc at Stanford with the topology in computer science working group. Congratulations, Drs. Mitchell and Johansson! Announcements rosezipper. Eric Kow (kowey) [3]announced the release of [4]rosezipper, Krasimir Angelov and Iavor S. Diatchki's Data.Tree implementation of zippers. list-extras 0.1.0. wren ng thornton (koninkje) [5]announced the initial release of [6]list-extras, a home for common not-so-common list functions. Sun Microsystems and Haskell.org joint project on OpenSPARC. Duncan Coutts (dcoutts) [7]announced a [8]joint project between Sun Microsystems and the Haskell.org community to exploit the high performance capabilities of Sun's latest multi-core [9]OpenSPARC systems via Haskell! Sun has donated a powerful 8 core SPARC Enterprise T5120 Server to the Haskell community, and $10,000 to fund a student to further develop support for high performance Haskell on the SPARC. The student will work with a mentor from Haskell.org and an adviser from Sun's SPARC compiler team. If you're a student and this sounds interesting to you, send in those applications!! Hayoo! beta 0.2. Timo B. [10]announced the second beta release of [11]Hayoo!, a Haskell API search engine providing advanced features like suggestions, find-as-you-type, fuzzy queries and much more. The major change in this release is the inclusion of all packages available on Hackage in the index. Haskell-beginners mailing list. Benjamin L. Russell [12]announced the creation of the [13]Haskell-Beginners Mailing List, beginners at haskell.org, devoted to discussion of primarily beginner-level topics related to Haskell. It's already off to a great start, so if you're a Haskell beginner, or someone interested in answering beginner questions, please subscribe! Haskeline 0.2. Judah Jacobson [14]announced the initial (alpha-ish) release of [15]Haskeline, a library for line input in command-line programs. It is similar in purpose to editline or readline, but is written in Haskell and thus (hopefully) more easily used in other Haskell programs. Google Summer of Code Progress updates from participants in the 2008 [16]Google Summer of Code. Generic tries. Jamie Brandon is working on a library for efficient maps using generalized tries. [17]This week, he ran QuickCheck on his test suite for the first time, and found a large number of failing tests! He's got his work cut out for him straightening those out over the next few days. DPH physics engine. Roman Cheplyaka (Feuerbach) is working on a [18]physics engine using [19]Data Parallel Haskell. [20]This week, he implemented full handling of rigid body collisions, including angular velocity. Next he plans to explore various ways to make the engine faster, including broad-phase collision detection. GHC plugins. Max Bolingbroke is working on dynamically loaded plugins for GHC. [21]This week, he revealed his "mystery project": an HTML pretty-printer for GHC core! [22]Here is a sample. Now his focus turns to tidying things up and solidifying documentation in preparation for getting his patches merged into GHC HEAD. Hoogle 4. Neil Mitchell (ndm) is working on [23]Hoogle 4. [24]This week, he fleshed out the final part of type search, including support for instances and alpha renaming of variables. Unfortunately, it uses too much memory to be feasibly run on the base libraries! Neil has some ideas on how to fix this, however, which he plans to tackle next week. Language.C. Benedikt Huber (visq) is [25]working on Language.C, a standalone parser/pretty printer library for C99. He has finally completed a working implementation for analysing declarations and definitions, and [26]presents a working example of the library's use. Cabal dependency framework. Andrea Vezzosi (Saizan) is working on a [27]make-like dependency analysis framework for Cabal. GHC API. Thomas Schilling (nominolo) is working on [28]improvements to the GHC API. Libraries Proposals and extensions to the [29]standard libraries. generalize mapAccumL/R. Ross Paterson [30]proposed adding generalized versions of mapAccumL and mapAccumR to Data.Traversable. signal-handling API. Simon Marlow [31]proposed a [32]new signal-handling API. Discussion Point-free style in guards. L29Ah [33]asked a question about using a points-free style in guard expressions, leading to a number of clever suggestions involving custom combinators. Optimizing sequence. Gracjan Polak started a [34]discussion on the strictness properties of the sequence function, and its implications for optimization. It sounds as though adding an alternate strict version of sequence to the libraries could be a good idea. Blog noise [35]Haskell news from the [36]blogosphere. * Eric Kow (kowey): [37]rose zipper on hackage. Eric has uploaded an implementation of a zipper for Data.Tree to hackage. * Jamie Brandon: [38]QuickCheck strikes again. An update on Jamie's Google Summer of Code project. Lots of failing QuickCheck tests mean Jamie has his work cut out for him. * >>> Ayumilove: [39]Haskell Programming Tutorial Part 1. A video introduction to Haskell? * Roman Cheplyaka (Feuerbach): [40]Status report: week 7-8. An update on Roman's Google Summer of Code project. * Conal Elliott (conal): [41]Designing for the future. * Benedikt Huber (visq): [42]Language.C: Analysing Definitions. An update on Benedikt's Google Summer of Code project. * Max Bolingbroke: [43]Compiler Plugins For GHC: Week Six. An update on Max's Google Summer of Code project. * Arnar Birgisson (Arnar): [44]Playing with Haskell's lazy lists. Arnar implements Eric Rowland's [45]simple prime-generating recurrence using lazy lists in Haskell. * Neil Mitchell (ndm): [46]GSoC Hoogle: Week 8. An update on Neil's Google Summer of Code project. * Matthew Sackman: [47]What is the point?. Matthew had his submission rejected from the Haskell Symposium, and isn't happy about it. * Tupil: [48]Stemming with Haskell reloaded. An updated, more functional/Haskellish interface to the stemmer library. * Luke Palmer (luqui): [49]Semantic Design. Luke's reflections on a design approach learned from Conal Elliott. * Muad`Dib (vixey): [50]Rascal - Mini-haskell like language. * Jeremy Shaw: [51]HTML Templating in HAppS using HSP. Jeremy writes a very cool introduction/tutorial to using HSP (Haskell Server Pages) with HAppS. * >>> Duane Johnson: [52]Lazy Evaluation at Work. Duane likes the idea of lazy file I/O. * >>> Duane Johnson: [53]A Glimmer of Monadic Hope. Duane figures out do-notation. * >>> Duane Johnson: [54]Using 'foldr' in Haskell. Duane figures out how to define (++) and concat in terms of foldr. * Mikael Johansson (Syzygy-): [55]Dr rer nat, Magna cum laude. * >>> Holden Karau: [56]Integrating your HUnit (or other) tests into your cabal package. * Real-World Haskell: [57]Beta availability hiccups. * >>> Antoine Hersen: [58]ICFP 2008 Postmortem. * Edward Kmett (edwardk): [59]A Sort of Difference. Edward uses an analysis of quicksort in Haskell as a jumping-off point for an introduction to difference lists. * Ralf Lammel: [60]The Expression Lemma -- Explained. Ralf explains the relationship between OOP and FP. * >>> Greg McClure: [61]Learning languages through problem-solving. Greg extols the virtues of [62]Project Euler for learning new languages, and exhibits a solution to the first problem in Haskell, Erlang, and Python. Quotes of the Week * kryptiskt: my point is that our brain isn't some logic machine, it's a jury-rigged contraption to help us get food, friends and sex. It's the Perl of intelligences. * Fallacy: peyton `simon` jones * Quadrescence: [on #haskell] Well, the nice population here attracts people. Unlike other pla_C_es. How'd those underscores get there? * mauke: hmm, regexes get even more cryptic after z-encoding: ZLz3fUZCZLz3fUzlznzrwZRZLz3fUzezrwZRzbZLz3fUzlzezrwZRZLz3fUznzrwZRZR * BMeph: Haskell: Where even the newest newcomer acts monadically: join :: ask (ask something) -> ask something * Quadrescence: quicksilver: You must be an anthropomorphic robot or something. About the Haskell Weekly News New editions are posted to [63]the Haskell mailing list as well as to [64]the Haskell Sequence and [65]Planet Haskell. [66]RSS is also available, and headlines appear on [67]haskell.org. Headlines are available as [68]PDF. To help create new editions of this newsletter, please see the information on [69]how to contribute. Send stories to byorgey at seas dot upenn dot edu. The darcs repository is available at darcs get [70]http://code.haskell.org/~byorgey/code/hwn/ . References 1. http://haskell.org/ 2. http://blog.mikael.johanssons.org/archive/2008/07/dr-rer-nat-magna-cum-laude/ 3. http://koweycode.blogspot.com/2008/07/rose-zipper-on-hackage.html 4. http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/rosezipper 5. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/42485 6. http://code.haskell.org/~wren/ 7. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.general/16351 8. http://haskell.org/opensparc/ 9. http://opensparc.net/ 10. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.general/16349 11. http://holumbus.fh-wedel.de/hayoo 12. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.general/16345 13. http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners 14. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.general/16343 15. http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/haskeline 16. http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/summer-of-code/wiki/SoC2008 17. http://jamiiecb.blogspot.com/2008/07/quickcheck-strikes-again.html 18. http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Hpysics 19. http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/GHC/Data_Parallel_Haskell 20. http://physics-dph.blogspot.com/2008/07/status-report-week-7-8.html 21. http://blog.omega-prime.co.uk/2008/07/21/compiler-plugins-for-ghc-week-six/ 22. http://www.omega-prime.co.uk/files/GHC-Core-HTML.html 23. http://code.haskell.org/hoogle/ 24. http://neilmitchell.blogspot.com/2008/07/gsoc-hoogle-week-8.html 25. http://www.sivity.net/projects/language.c/wiki/ 26. http://hsbene.blogspot.com/2008/07/languagec-analysing-definitions.html 27. http://code.haskell.org/~Saizan/cabal 28. http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/GhcApiStatus 29. http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Library_submissions 30. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.libraries/9649 31. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.libraries/9599 32. http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/2451 33. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/42475 34. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/42453 35. http://planet.haskell.org/ 36. http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Blog_articles 37. http://koweycode.blogspot.com/2008/07/rose-zipper-on-hackage.html 38. http://jamiiecb.blogspot.com/2008/07/quickcheck-strikes-again.html 39. http://www.5min.com/Video/Ayumilove-Haskell-Programming-Tutorial-Part-1-31180892 40. http://physics-dph.blogspot.com/2008/07/status-report-week-7-8.html 41. http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/conal/~3/342784118/ 42. http://hsbene.blogspot.com/2008/07/languagec-analysing-definitions.html 43. http://blog.omega-prime.co.uk/2008/07/21/compiler-plugins-for-ghc-week-six/ 44. http://www.hvergi.net/2008/07/playing-with-haskells-lazy-lists/ 45. http://recursed.blogspot.com/2008/07/rutgers-graduate-student-finds-new.html 46. http://neilmitchell.blogspot.com/2008/07/gsoc-hoogle-week-8.html 47. http://www.wellquite.org/what_is_the_point.html 48. http://blog.tupil.com/stemming-with-haskell-reloaded/ 49. http://luqui.org/blog/archives/2008/07/18/semantic-design/ 50. http://muaddibspace.blogspot.com/2008/07/rascal-mini-haskell-like-language.html 51. http://nhlab.blogspot.com/2008/07/html-templating-in-happs-using-hsp.html 52. http://blog.inquirylabs.com/2008/07/18/lazy-evaluation-at-work/ 53. http://blog.inquirylabs.com/2008/07/17/a-glimmer-of-monadic-hope/ 54. http://blog.inquirylabs.com/2008/07/17/using-foldr-in-haskell/ 55. http://blog.mikael.johanssons.org/archive/2008/07/dr-rer-nat-magna-cum-laude/ 56. http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/holdenkarau/iYtm/~3/337908379/integrating-your-hunit-or-other-tests.html 57. http://www.realworldhaskell.org/blog/2008/07/16/beta-availability-hiccups/ 58. http://endymion2021.livejournal.com/17117.html 59. http://comonad.com/reader/2008/a-sort-of-difference/ 60. http://blogs.msdn.com/ralflammel/archive/2008/07/16/the-expression-lemma-explained.aspx 61. http://www.codechops.com/?p=15 62. http://www.projecteuler.net/ 63. http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell 64. http://sequence.complete.org/ 65. http://planet.haskell.org/ 66. http://sequence.complete.org/node/feed 67. http://haskell.org/ 68. http://code.haskell.org/~byorgey/code/hwn/archives/20080723.pdf 69. http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/HWN 70. http://code.haskell.org/~byorgey/code/hwn/ From Oege.de.Moor at comlab.ox.ac.uk Thu Jul 24 11:44:35 2008 From: Oege.de.Moor at comlab.ox.ac.uk (Oege.de.Moor@comlab.ox.ac.uk) Date: Thu Jul 24 11:34:35 2008 Subject: [Haskell] CC 2009: abstracts due Oct 2 Message-ID: <200807241544.m6OFiZXQ026959@merc3.comlab.ox.ac.uk> >>> abstracts - Oct 2, full papers - Oct 9 <<< CC 2009 International Conference on Compiler Construction March 22-29, York, United Kingdom Invited Speaker: Vivek Sarkar (Rice University, US) Part of ETAPS 2009 http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/etaps09/Conf/conf.html#cc CC is a premier forum for presenting research on compilers in the broadest possible sense, including run-time techniques, programming tools, domain-specific languages, novel language constructs and so on. In recent years CC has seen a healthy increase in the number of submissions, in line with its broad outlook; its typical acceptance rate is 20-25%. CC is part of ETAPS, and this year it is held in York (UK), March 22-29 2009. The program committee would particularly welcome submissions from researchers in functional programming on any topic relating to analysis, optimisation and compilation of Haskell programs Abstracts are due on October 2, and the deadline for full paper submission is October 9. Prospective authors are welcome to contact the program chairs, Michael Schwartzbach (mis@brics.dk) and Oege de Moor (oege@comlab.ox.ac.uk) with any queries they might have. From john at repetae.net Thu Jul 24 17:38:24 2008 From: john at repetae.net (John Meacham) Date: Thu Jul 24 17:28:20 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] ANNOUNCE: Sun Microsystems and Haskell.org joint project on OpenSPARC In-Reply-To: <1216828333.12754.30.camel@localhost> References: <1216828333.12754.30.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20080724213824.GA11895@sliver.repetae.net> Neat stuff. I used to work at Sun in the solaris kernel group, the SPARC architecture is quite elegant. I wonder if we can find an interesting use for the register windows in a haskell compiler. Many compilers for non c-like languages (such as boquist's one that jhc is based on (in spirit, if not code)) just ignore the windows and treat the architecture as having a flat 32 register file. John -- John Meacham - ?repetae.net?john? From felipe.lessa at gmail.com Sat Jul 26 22:50:39 2008 From: felipe.lessa at gmail.com (Felipe Lessa) Date: Sat Jul 26 22:40:30 2008 Subject: [Haskell] ANN: Hipmunk 0.1 and HipmunkPlayground 0.1 Message-ID: Hello! =) I'm pleased to announce the availability of Hipmunk, containing bindings for the Chipmunk 2D physics engine, and Hipmunk Playground, where you may see some of Hipmunk's features in action. The bindings are low-level but try to hide most of the nasty details of the C code. It was tested on two Linux distros (with GHC 6.8.3) and Windows (GHC 6.8.1). You may get Cabal packages for both on Hackage at: - http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/Hipmunk - http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/HipmunkPlayground The Chipmunk physics engine home page is at http://wiki.slembcke.net/main/published/Chipmunk . Thanks, -- Felipe. From ben.franksen at online.de Sun Jul 27 19:29:30 2008 From: ben.franksen at online.de (Ben Franksen) Date: Sun Jul 27 19:19:28 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: ANN: Hayoo! beta 0.2 References: <200807231104.03210.t.h@gmx.info> Message-ID: Timo B. H?bel wrote: > we are pleased to announce the second beta release of Hayoo!, a Haskell > API search engine providing advanced features like suggestions, > find-as-you-type, fuzzy queries and much more. > > Visit Hayoo! here: http://holumbus.fh-wedel.de/hayoo > > The major change is the inclusion of all packages available on Hackage, > i.e. the documentation of the latest versions of all packages is included > in the index. > > Unfortunately we had to drop the direct links to the source code, as the > documentation on Hackage is currently generated without source code. But > as soon as this changes, we will include these links again. > > Additionally, we added some tweaks to the interface which make the browser > history/the back button work (at least in Firefox). > > Please bear in mind that this is still a beta release and we are > continuously working on further improvements. > > Any suggestions and feedback is highly welcomed. Well, it is currently not in a usable state: the page randomly inserts funny characters into the text input field. (I'm using Konqueror) Cheers Ben From matthew at wellquite.org Tue Jul 29 10:28:21 2008 From: matthew at wellquite.org (Matthew Sackman) Date: Tue Jul 29 10:19:24 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: Anglo Haskell 2008 In-Reply-To: <20080707153827.GA6240@wellquite.org> References: <20080701121531.GB1808@arkansas.doc.ic.ac.uk> <20080707153853.GB6240@wellquite.org> Message-ID: <20080729142820.GG5180@koba.home.wellquite.org> Anglo Haskell is a gathering of all people Haskell-related from beginners, to seasoned hackers to academic giants. All and more are welcomed by large fuzzy green lambdas.[0] Anglo Haskell 2009 is nearly upon us and planning has been going well! We are delighted to be able to confirm Simon Marlow is headlining this year's event which is being held at Imperial College, London on the 8th and 9th of August (Friday and Saturday). We are also very happy to be able to announce there will be talks on both days: 5 talks on the Friday and at least 3 and possibly 4 on the Saturday. There will be an evening meal at local resturant on the Friday evening followed by the odd drink for those that way inclined; a lazy brunch on the Saturday morning, and then potentially some group hacking on the Saturday afternoon and evening. We are truly excited about this and should very much like to see you *all* there! Full details are available at: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/AngloHaskell/2008 Things that are still to be added to that page which will appear over the next week: o) Phone numbers for myself and Tristan so that should you get lost you can ring one of us; o) Video or photos of how to navigate to the correct room at Imperial - should somehow signs fail to materialise. Please think about coming along - even if it's just for a single day. It's FREE after all! If you are coming please put your name down on the list on the wiki page, and further, if you'd like to come out to dinner with us on the Friday evening, there's a separate list for that - please add yourself to that too. Many thanks, Matthew -- On behalf of the AH2008 team. [0] We've been unable to obtain any large fuzzy green lambdas. If anyone has any knocking about or knows where we can get some, please let us know. From wiiat at kis-lab.com Tue Jul 29 11:09:38 2008 From: wiiat at kis-lab.com (WI-IAT'08) Date: Tue Jul 29 10:59:22 2008 Subject: [Haskell] WI-IAT'08 Workshops: Deadline Extended to August 7, 2008 Message-ID: <200807300009374057140@kis-lab.com> DQpbQXBvbG9naWVzIGlmIHlvdSByZWNlaXZlIHRoaXMgbW9yZSB0aGFuIG9uY2VdDQoNClBhcGVy cyBEdWU6ICoqKiA3IEF1Z3VzdCAyMDA4ICoqKk5FVyBERUFETElORSoqKiANCkR1ZSB0byByZXBl YXRlZCByZXF1ZXN0cywgdGhlIGRlYWRsaW5lIGlzIGV4dGVuZGVkIHRvIDcgQXVndXN0IDIwMDgu DQoNCiMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMj IyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIw0KICAgICAgICAgICBJRUVFL1dJQy9BQ00gV0ktSUFUIDIwMDggV09S S1NIT1BTDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBDQUxMIEZPUiBQQVBFUlMNCiMjIyMjIyMjIyMj IyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMj Iw0KDQoyMDA4IElFRUUvV0lDL0FDTSBJbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsIENvbmZlcmVuY2Ugb24gV2ViIElu dGVsbGlnZW5jZSAoV0ktMDgpDQoyMDA4IElFRUUvV0lDL0FDTSBJbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsIENvbmZl 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ZV9pZD02IA0KDQorKysrKysrKysrKysrKysrDQpJbXBvcnRhbnQgRGF0ZXMNCisrKysrKysrKysr KysrKysNCg0KICogV29ya3Nob3AgcGFwZXIgc3VibWlzc2lvbjogNyBBdWd1c3QsIDIwMDggKioq TkVXIERFQURMSU5FKioqDQogKiBBdXRob3Igbm90aWZpY2F0aW9uOiBTZXB0ZW1iZXIgMywgMjAw OA0KICogQ29uZmVyZW5jZSBkYXRlczogRGVjZW1iZXIgOS0xMiwgMjAwOA0KDQorKysrKysrKysr KysrKysrKysrKysrKysNCldvcmtzaG9wIENvLUNoYWlycw0KKysrKysrKysrKysrKysrKysrKysr KysrDQoNCiAgKiBZdWVmZW5nIExpLCBRdWVlbnNsYW5kIFVuaXZlcnNpdHkgb2YgVGVjaG5vbG9n eSwgQXVzdHJhbGlhIChFbWFpbDogeTIubGlAcXV0LmVkdS5hdSkNCiAgKiBHYWJyaWVsbGEgUGFz aSwgVW5pdmVyc2l0eSBvZiBNaWxhbm8sIEl0YWx5IChFbWFpbDogcGFzaUBkaXNjby51bmltaWIu aXQpDQoNCg0K From gvidal at dsic.upv.es Wed Jul 30 05:17:38 2008 From: gvidal at dsic.upv.es (German Vidal) Date: Wed Jul 30 05:17:43 2008 Subject: [Haskell] [PEPM 2009] Preliminary CFP Message-ID: P R E L I M I N A R Y C A L L F O R P A P E R S === P E P M 2009 === ACM SIGPLAN Workshop on Partial Evaluation and Program Manipulation http://www.clip.dia.fi.upm.es/Conferences/PEPM09 January 19-20, 2009 Savannah, Georgia, USA (Affiliated with POPL 2009) IMPORTANT DATES Abstract due: October 12, 2008 Submission: October 17, 2008 Author Notification: November 17, 2008 Camera-Ready Paper: December 1, 2008 SCOPE The PEPM Symposium/Workshop series aims at bringing together researchers and practitioners working in the areas of program manipulation, partial evaluation, and program generation. PEPM focuses on techniques, theory, tools, and applications of analysis and manipulation of programs. PEPM is classified as category A in the CORE ranking of ICT conferences. The 2009 PEPM workshop will be based on a broad interpretation of semantics-based program manipulation and continue last years' successful effort to expand the scope of PEPM significantly beyond the traditionally covered areas of partial evaluation and specialization and include practical applications of program transformations such as refactoring tools, and practical implementation techniques such as rule-based transformation systems. In addition, the scope of PEPM covers manipulation and transformations of program and system representations such as structural and semantic models that occur in the context of model-driven development. In order to reach out to practitioners, a separate category of tool demonstration papers will be solicited. Topics of interest for PEPM'09 include, but are not limited to: * Program and model manipulation techniques such as transformations driven by rules, patterns, or analyses, partial evaluation, specialization, program inversion, program composition, slicing, symbolic execution, refactoring, aspect weaving, decompilation, and obfuscation. * Program analysis techniques that are used to drive program/model manipulation such as abstract interpretation, static analysis, binding-time analysis, dynamic analysis, constraint solving, and type systems. * Analysis and transformation for programs/models with advanced features such as objects, generics, ownership types, aspects, reflection, XML type systems, component frameworks, and middleware. * Techniques that treat programs/models as data objects including meta-programming, generative programming, staged computation, and model-driven program generation and transformation. * Application of the above techniques including experimental studies, engineering needed for scalability, and benchmarking. Examples of application domains include legacy program understanding and transformation, domain-specific language implementations, scientific computing, middleware frameworks and infrastructure needed for distributed and web-based applications, resource-limited computation, and security. We especially encourage papers that break new ground including descriptions of how program/model manipulation tools can be integrated into realistic software development processes, descriptions of robust tools capable of effectively handling realistic applications, and new areas of application such as rapidly evolving systems, distributed and webbased programming including middleware manipulation, model-driven development, and on-the-fly program adaptation driven by run-time or statistical analysis. SUBMISSION GUIDELINES, CATEGORIES, AND PROCEEDINGS Regular Research Papers must not exceed 10 pages in ACM Proceedings style. Tool demonstration papers must not exceed 4 pages in ACM Proceedings style. At least one author of each accepted contribution must attend the workshop and present the work. In the case of tool demonstration papers, a live demonstration of the described tool is expected. Suggested topics, evaluation criteria, and writing guidelines for both research tool demonstration papers will be made available on the PEPM'09 Web-site. Papers should be submitted electronically via the workshop web site. The workshop proceedings will be published in the ACM Digital Library. A journal special issue dedicated to PEPM'09 including selected papers is under consideration. PROGRAM CO-CHAIRS German Puebla, Technical University of Madrid, Spain German Vidal, Technical University of Valencia, Spain PEPM 2009 PROGRAM COMMITTEE To be announced From bogart at eecs.oregonstate.edu Wed Jul 30 11:36:22 2008 From: bogart at eecs.oregonstate.edu (Chris Bogart) Date: Wed Jul 30 11:36:24 2008 Subject: [Haskell] ANN: Need functional programmers for debugging study Message-ID: <7aaf7b730807300836o1740ad33q6bb32e03a8a723a8@mail.gmail.com> Are you currently developing or maintaining a medium to large-sized program written in a functional language, such as Haskell, F#, OCaml, or Lisp? I'm a PhD student doing a study of functional programmers, as part of a research internship at Microsoft, and I would like the opportunity to look over your shoulder while you do debugging or coding on your project. I'm looking for people with at least a year's experience doing functional programming, and who are currently working on a real project (i.e. for some purpose other than learning functional programming). I'm only allowed to use people who can work in the US (because of the gratuity, which is taxable income). I'd simply come watch you work, and ask a few questions along the way. You'd do whatever you would normally be doing. If you're near Seattle or Portland, I'd come to your office for a couple of hours. If you're not near Seattle or Portland, then we'd set you up with LiveMeeting or some other remote screencast software so I can watch you from here. Obviously security concerns are an issue - I will not share any proprietary information that I learn about while visiting you. In exchange for your help, Microsoft will offer you your pick of free software off its gratuity list (which has about 50 items, including Visual Studio Professional, Word for Mac, XBOX 360 games) or any book from MS Press. We're doing this because expert functional programmers have not been studied much. We plan to share our findings through academic publications, to help tool developers create debugging tools that are genuinely helpful in real-world settings. I'm hoping to finish my observations by August 8th, so please contact me immediately if you're interested! Thank you, Chris Bogart 425-538-3562 t-chribo@microsoft.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell/attachments/20080730/fa69bd7f/attachment.htm From byorgey at seas.upenn.edu Thu Jul 31 16:47:57 2008 From: byorgey at seas.upenn.edu (Brent Yorgey) Date: Thu Jul 31 17:00:17 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 79 - July 31, 2008 Message-ID: <20080731204757.GA11023@minus.seas.upenn.edu> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Haskell Weekly News http://sequence.complete.org/hwn/20080731 Issue 79 - July 31, 2008 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome to issue 79 of HWN, a newsletter covering developments in the [1]Haskell community. Apologies for the slightly late issue this week, attributable to a combination of having to transfer all my files onto a different computer (my former employer had the audacity to request the return of their laptop, now that I no longer work for them) and packing up to move to Philadelphia on Saturday. At any rate, some exciting news this week, including #haskell passing the 500 mark and a new release of Yi -- enjoy! Community News Correction from last week's issue: congratulations were bestowed upon a certain "Dr. Johansson" who does not, in fact, exist, having been replaced almost a year ago by the happily married but otherwise identical Dr. Mikael Vejdemo-Johansson. Announcements A fancier Get monad or two (a la binary and binary-strict). Chris Kuklewicz [2]announced two new Get-like monads for binary data, with a number of additional features. #haskell irc channel reaches 500 users. Don Stewart [3]announced that 6 1/2 years after its inception, under the guiding hand of Shae Erisson (aka shapr), the [4]#haskell IRC channel on freenode has finally reached 500 users! This puts the channel at around the 12th largest (and mostest friendliest) community of the 7000 freenode channels. RandomDotOrg-0.1. Austin Seipp [5]announced the release of the [6]RandomDotOrg package, an interface to the [7]random.org random number generator. Mueval 0.3.1, 0.4, 0.4.5, 0.4.6, 0.5. Gwern Branwen [8]announced a number of releases of [9]Mueval, a package allowing dynamic runtime evaluation of Haskell expressions. As far as anyone knows, all possible security holes have been plugged, and it's missing only a few features before it can replace hs-plugins as lambdabot's evaluation mechanism. Need functional programmers for debugging study. Chris Bogart [10]asked for functional programmers currently developing or maintaining a medium to large-sized program, willing to let him look over their shoulder while they do debugging or coding on the project. Yi 0.4.1. Jean-Philippe Bernardy [11]announced the 0.4.1 release of the Yi editor, a text editor written and extensible in Haskell. The long-term goal of the Yi project is to provide the editor of choice for Haskell programmers. Hipmunk 0.1 and HipmunkPlayground 0.1. Felipe Lessa [12]announced the availability of [13]Hipmunk, containing bindings for the [14]Chipmunk 2D physics engine, and [15]Hipmunk Playground, where you may see some of Hipmunk's features in action. The bindings are low-level but try to hide most of the nasty details of the C code. faster BLAS bindings. Patrick Perry [16]announced that he has [17]largely closed the C performance gap with his recent [18]Haskell BLAS bindings. Expect a new release shortly. FPers in Northwest Arkansas?. Nathan Bloomfield [19]is wondering if there are any Haskellers in the NW Arkansas region to start a functional programming interest group in the area. Italian Haskellers Summer Meeting. Pasqualino 'Titto' Assini [20]announced something about a summer meeting for Italian Haskellers. If you would like to know precisely what it was that was announced, I suggest you learn Italian. InterleavableIO. Marco Tulio Gontijo e Silva [21]announced a package, [22]interleavableIO, based on Jules Bean (quicksilver)'s [23]monadic tunneling code. Google Summer of Code Progress updates from participants in the 2008 [24]Google Summer of Code. Hoogle 4. Neil Mitchell (ndm) is working on [25]Hoogle 4. [26]This week, he rewrote type search: after three days of coding, it required only a few minor debugging tweaks to get it to work. Haskell FTW! Expect a public beta of the command line interface next week. Generic tries. Jamie Brandon is working on a library for efficient maps using generalized tries. [27]This week, he has finally got everything up and running bug free on the new API, except the internals are still using association lists instead of AVL trees. He also exhibits a promising benchmark. DPH physics engine. Roman Cheplyaka (Feuerbach) is working on a [28]physics engine using [29]Data Parallel Haskell. GHC plugins. Max Bolingbroke is working on dynamically loaded plugins for GHC. Cabal dependency framework. Andrea Vezzosi (Saizan) is working on a [30]make-like dependency analysis framework for Cabal. Language.C. Benedikt Huber (visq) is [31]working on Language.C, a standalone parser/pretty printer library for C99. GHC API. Thomas Schilling (nominolo) is working on [32]improvements to the GHC API. Discussion Build system woes. Roman Leshchinskiy began a [33]discussion on Cabal and GHC's new build system, with some suggestions for improving the process. Syb Renovations? Issues with Data.Generics. Claus Reinke [34]brought up a number of issues with Data.Generics, with suggestions for improvement. A question about mfix. Wei Hu [35]asked a question about the definition and semantics of mfix, the monadic fix operation. Using fundeps to resolve polymorphic types to concrete types. Bryan Donlan [36]asked a question about the interaction between functional dependencies and type checking, with a rather subtle answer. Best book/tutorial on category theory and its applications. fero [37]asked for recommendations on a book about category theory. Loss of humour. Andrew Coppin [38]laments the loss of some of Haskell's humorous heritage. Blog noise [39]Haskell news from the [40]blogosphere. * Ketil Malde: [41]Updates and other trivialities. * Ulisses Costa: [42]Lex/yacc. A short lex/yacc tutorial. * Luke Plant: [43]Haskell Regex replace. Luke wonders if anyone knows how to do regex replace in Haskell. * Eric Kow (kowey): [44]simple random numbers in Haskell. Eric writes a simple tutorial for the System.Random module. * Jamie Brandon: [45]Week 7 progress (respect my formatting damnit). An update on Jamie's Google Summer of Code project. * Tupil: [46]Formlets in Haskell. * John Goerzen (CosmicRay): [47]Seen in the Haskell wiki. * Ulisses Costa: [48]Type inference. * Dennis Bueno: [49]ICFP Contest 2008 -- The One Liners. Dennis describes his experiences participating in this year's ICFP Programming Contest. * Magnus Therning: [50]More prefixes. * Don Stewart (dons): [51]Haskell: Batteries Included. * >>> Harry Pierson: [52]Monadic Philosophy Part 2 - The LINQ Monad. * >>> Harry Pierson: [53]Monadic Philosophy. Harry begins a series explaining his journey through understanding monads. * Ulisses Costa: [54]Pointfree Calculator. * Eric Kow (kowey): [55]pandoc gets mediawiki support. * Dan Piponi (sigfpe): [56]The Fibonacci Numbers, Coalgebraicaly. * Twan van Laarhoven: [57]Solving nonograms. * >>> Ayumilove: [58]Haskell Programming Tutorial Part 2A. * >>> Ayumilove: [59]Haskell Programming Tutorial Part 2B. * >>> Ayumilove: [60]Haskell Programming Tutorial Part 3. * >>> Darren Moffat: [61]T5120 donated to Haskell Community. Sun's donation inspires Darren to get back into Haskell and maybe contribute some code to GHC again, like he did back when he was a student at Glasgow. * Mikael Vejdemo-Johansson (DrSyzygy): [62]Blackbox computing of A-infinity algebras. The last results from Mikael's thesis have made it into article form, and are [63]available on the arXiv. * John Goerzen (CosmicRay): [64]OSCon Update. * Real-World Haskell: [65]Beta availability hiccups. * John Goerzen (CosmicRay): [66]First 2 Days of OSCon. John reports live from OSCon. * Neil Mitchell: [67]GSoC Hoogle: Week 9. An update on Neil's Google Summer of Code project. * Patrick Perry: [68]Addressing Haskell BLAS Performance Issues. Patrick's Haskell BLAS bindings are now significantly sped up, and he explains what made the difference. * Arnar Birgisson (Arnar): [69]Parsing annotated postfix operators with Haskell. Arnar exhibits a neat pattern for constructing certain types of parsers, which makes essential use of first-class functions. Quotes of the Week * mauke: a hint to beginners: typing 'fix error' in ghci does not have the intended effect. * mauke: Hungarian Notation constructs a type system in the mind of the programmer. * rwbarton: I was hoping for a pile of Functors. * Baughn: [on lambdabot] Yes, PMS is a real issue. Poor memory size, that is. * Cale: There should be a website called "Static Equilibrium or Not" where you rate pictures according to whether you think the depicted objects are in static equilibrium. * sahko: xmonad is an ancient african word for "you dont need to use a mouse fool". * doidydoidy: Category theory is exactly like a comic book alternative universe, except they use the prefix "co-" instead of "bizarro". About the Haskell Weekly News New editions are posted to [70]the Haskell mailing list as well as to [71]the Haskell Sequence and [72]Planet Haskell. [73]RSS is also available, and headlines appear on [74]haskell.org. Headlines are available as [75]PDF. To help create new editions of this newsletter, please see the information on [76]how to contribute. Send stories to byorgey at seas dot upenn dot edu. The darcs repository is available at darcs get [77]http://code.haskell.org/~byorgey/code/hwn/ . 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